I think it would be fairly worthwhile given Larssonās accomplishments in the game to be regarded as the best striker heās ever played with. Heskeyās often derided but seems to be appreciated by his team-mates. That doesnāt necessarily mean Suttonās a mirror image case given Sutton was exceptional for Celtic and got praise throughout his time with the club from players, supporters, coaching staff and media alike.
I always thought Sutton was a great player for Celticā¦especially in the big gamesā¦only a few seasons previous he had been top scorer in the premiership so nobody can argue with his pedigreeā¦he came to Scotland and his attitude was superbā¦he put his body on the line in many gamesā¦think he might have played a few games with his wrist in a castā¦had a great footballing brain and set up so many goals ā¦and most importantly he played where he was picked without ever complaining (Garteh barry take note)ā¦If Oāneill asked him to play centre forward,centre mid or centre half he did it without batting an eyelidā¦in the end he deserved a lot better from celtic as a club for his service than Strachan allowedā¦
How is any of that different to Michael Owen priasing Heskey, Owen was European Footballer of the year after all.
Heskey has also been praised by players, supporters, coaching staff and media alike, while playing in the Champions League and also keeping Sutton out of the England team.
hardly a barometer for judging anything considering England have never won anything since '66ā¦so obviously the players picked werenāt up to itā¦
hard to compare the two thoughā¦heskey never had suttonās touch and visionā¦Sutton never had heskeys strength and paceā¦
[quote=āscumpotā]hardly a barometer for judging anything considering England have never won anything since '66ā¦so obviously the players picked werenāt up to itā¦
[/quote]
Fair enough, but he was still seen as a better player by the powers that be, no matter who they were
hard to compare the two thoughā¦heskey never had suttonās touch and visionā¦Sutton never had heskeys strength and paceā¦
Succinct way of putting it, although Heskeys vision has improved if not his touch.
Just realised Iām defending Heskey here, fuck it this is one slow day.
[quote=āmyboyblueā]How is any of that different to Michael Owen priasing Heskey, Owen was European Footballer of the year after all.
Heskey has also been praised by players, supporters, coaching staff and media alike, while playing in the Champions League and also keeping Sutton out of the England team.[/quote]
I donāt see your point here. Sutton was never picked for any England squad again after refusing to play for their āBā team under Glenn Hoddle a few years before Heskey came on the scene with them. I have no issue with people rating Emile Heskey but that clearly doesnāt impact on Chris Sutton nor take away from the fact that Sutton was a superb player during his time at Celtic and the player Larsson considers the best striker heās ever played with. It strikes me as rather odd to be quoting comments about Sutton with points of information about Heskey.
[quote=āmyboyblueā]Fair enough, but he was still seen as a better player by the powers that be, no matter who they were
[/quote]
True but when it came to England both were only every seen as a battering ram for a āstarā sriker to feed off ā¦a description which Heskey was more equipped to fitā¦
You said to seek proof of Suttons prowess just ask Larsson. I found that to be odd because you could claim Heskey to be good by that definition because Michael Owen always claimed he was the best player he ever played beside. Hence why I brought up Heskey because many many people say Heskey is shite irregardless of Owens recommendations.
Hence, ergo, just because Larsson says Sutton is a good player, does not a good player make.
[quote=āmyboyblueā]You said to seek proof of Suttons prowess just ask Larsson. I found that to be odd because you could claim Heskey to be good by that definition because Michael Owen always claimed he was the best player he ever played beside. Hence why I brought up Heskey because many many people say Heskey is shite irregardless of Owens recommendations.
Hence, ergo, just because Larsson says Sutton is a good player, does not a good player make.[/quote]
I thought it odd that you would choose one sole other player whoās been priased by a team-mate to try to disprove my point about Sutton. Heskeyās rated by comtemporaries it seems and fair play to him but heās been much maligned, possibly more so than praised. Sutton was universally praised during his years with Celtic from all corners, including team-mates, because he was glaringly superb for the vast majority of his time there. Iām not even sure if youāre arguing whether Heskeyās a good player or not but, again, thatās irrelevant to Suttonās class. The praise of Heskey was/is often in a defensive context, pointing out the attributes he brings to the team that go unnoticed by fans and such like. Sutton was merely praised because he was brilliant for Celtic. I just found it pretty odd is all.
I liked Sutton. He was a hard bastard, had good vision and technique. He had his limitations tho being slower than paul mcshane for a start. This was woefully apparent in his season at Chelsea. MON saved his career at Celtic where the slower style of play in the SPL suited him. Correct if Im wrong but Sutton was well past his best when Strachan arrived and was on high wages. Strachan needed to cut the wage bill and got rid. Was Sutton also not causing hassle for the ginger man behind the scenes. Cant argue with Strachan for the actions he took imo.
Gareth Barry has played probably in every position but in goal for Villa. He said he prefers to play in midfield and I dont blame him for that. He is an absolutely shit left back.
[quote=āKIB manā]Itās not that huge a challenge at all. Effectively it requires them to finish ahead of one decent team - the majority of the rest of the EPL is distinctly mediocre. And the way Aresnal are playing it should be manageable.
1. Villa finished 16th the season Oā Leary finished. In a league where the top4 are stretching further away from the rest in terms of resources and prestige year on year it is a monumental challenge. We have climbed 10 places in 2 seasons. But it is getting into the next two places that will be more difficult. Arsenal still have Fabregas, Adebayor, Clichy, Sagna, Walcott, Van Persie etc all outstanding players. It would probably be a miracle to finish ahead. All we can do is close the gap
The two team league in Scotland is one sixth of the teams in the division - the EPL isnāt much more competitive numbers-wise. If he does make Villa into a lasting credible European force then heāll have achieved much, otherwise heās just flirting with success like David OāLeary managed before him.
2. The EPL is outside the top 6 at its lowest level in years. that is true. The SPL including the top 2 is still shockingly poor. I ask again I dont watch Eircom LG or SPL that much but would Bohs survive? Villa under DOL went from 6th, 11th and to 16th. What Celtic players would make the Villa side. Boruc, McGeady at a stretch. On present form Iām being generous with those two
Your praise of the Villa players is frankly ludicrous. I pity people who donāt know how good Sutton was at Celtic - unlessed you watched Scottish football properly you may have no idea but the man was an inspiration and a top drawer striker. Carew came up against Celtic in his Valencia days and was laughable. OāNeill always rated him and I think he has talent but heās a flat track bully. Balde destroyed him.
3. Carew has been revitalised at Villa. At his best i think he is a better striker than Sutton was for Celtic. Sutton ended up playing midfield a good bit too. If he was that good of a striker he wouldnt have been.
How many SPL medals does Colin Healy have by the way?
4. I would have thought 2 but it doesnt mention it on wikipedia. Was he not in and out of MON first winning sides?
Itās petty and timewasting to go through the squads over the years and pick out examples of shite players but Villa have obviously had their fair share too.
true. marlon harewood still gets a pay packet
The only difference is the dross at Villa donāt have any medals to show for it because theyāre playing for a provincial club thatās struggling to compete with the big wealthy foreign owned clubs in their league - despite the fact that theyāre wealthy and foreign-owned themselves.
5. This is frankly a ridiculous point. We were miles behind the top 4 but are slowly but surely getting closer. Celtic play in a two team league. No matter how bad they are there is a good chance of them winning medals.[/quote]
Took the liberty of numbering the points
- How are Liverpool stretching further away from Aston Villa in terms of resources? Both are owned by wealthy American owners both have access to huge amounts of cash beyond their income levels but Villa are slightly more cautious about spending it.
Villa had some good times and some bad times under OāLeary. But you claimed that MON had the balls to take on the challenge of breaking into the top 4. Itās not much of a challenge if you consider yourself resigned to defeat on that score. Itās only worthy of praise if itās actually accomplished.
-
No Bohs wouldnāt survive. Guys like Roy OāDonovan and Wes Hoolahan have proven in recent seasons that thereās a gulf between the top of the Eircom League and medicority in the SPL. Not sure why youāre choosing the EL as a baromoter of the SPLās crapness though - does it really matter how Bohs would do? Rather odd defence of Villa that one.
-
Thereās no way Carew is performing at anything like the level Sutton was for Celtic. To choose one example Iāll never forget a blatantly injured Chris Sutton coming on at half time at home to Barcelona in the Champions League and bullying the fuck out of a Barca team that had strolled the first half. Iāve never seen Carew operating at that level and Iāve watched him a fair bit because I liked him as a player.
And he was that good a player that he also played midfield. Thatās not a sign of weakness.
-
Healy was never a regular in the Celtic side and certainly never under OāNeill.
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Celtic have been awful and picked up no medals in more years than Iād care to remember. Thereās no divine right to win the SPL - it may have a limited number of teams that can actually go and win the thing (reminds me of a league just south of Scotland) but it still takes winning. In recent seasons the UEFA Cup finalists have failed to win the SPL because of the competitiveness of the league. If the EPL was anything like as strong as itās proclaimed to be then the clubs would be hoovering up in the UEFA Cup but theyāre not.
Bad players winning medals doesnāt make those medals worthless. The fact that Roque Junior won a world cup with Brazil doesnāt mean Brazil are shit.
Just looked at this thread now and KIB you are talking some crap. Actually watched the match last night and have watched a bit of Villa in recent weeks and found it tedious. Standard was shocking with players unable to string a few passes together in a stadium that was completely devoid of any atmosphere from home or away support.
Clear to me and all reasonable fans of either side that Celtic team in that era is far far superior to Villa team now. To pick your most obvious error - Do you seriously believe that Ashley Young was a better player than Moravcik was?
To answer Bandageās question do I think MON regrets leaving Celtic Iād say that at the time he thought he had achieved all he could with the club but if he were to be offered the job tomorrow would he take it Iād say he could well do. He clearly has more of an emotional attatchment to Celtic than Aston Villa (similar enough to Maloney) and so much of his character is made up of passion that heād find it hard to turn it down. The added motivation in managing a big club would be a big club again would be a big pull also.
[quote=ātherock67ā]Took the liberty of numbering the points
- How are Liverpool stretching further away from Aston Villa in terms of resources? Both are owned by wealthy American owners both have access to huge amounts of cash beyond their income levels but Villa are slightly more cautious about spending it.
Villa had some good times and some bad times under OāLeary. But you claimed that MON had the balls to take on the challenge of breaking into the top 4. Itās not much of a challenge if you consider yourself resigned to defeat on that score. Itās only worthy of praise if itās actually accomplished.
[B]OK - Firstly I stated resources and prestige. Champions League money for a start is I would think increasing. Liverpool tend to go far in that competition generating a shit load of cash and prestige. The fact that Liverpool have been in 2 Champions League finals in recent years has attracted the likes of Torres, Keane etc. Even with a Randy Lerner on board it is extremely doubtful if we could go out and sign a Torres. Its one thing having huge money its another getting top class players in. Randy Lerner may be minted but he aint an Arab sheikh either.
DOL started well and finished with his managerial reputation in tatters by instigating a āplayerā coup against ellis. Ellis fired him and got MON on board (takeover was well under way at this stage). Getting rid of that wanker was one of the best decisions Ellis ever made. DOL hasnt been considered for a job since so I have a feeling there is a lot more to his sacking than meets the eye.[/B]
If anything under Randy Lerner Villa have been anything but cautious. 9m for ashley young, 12m for james milner. The only player we havent overpaid for is Carew.
- No Bohs wouldnāt survive. Guys like Roy OāDonovan and Wes Hoolahan have proven in recent seasons that thereās a gulf between the top of the Eircom League and medicority in the SPL. Not sure why youāre choosing the EL as a baromoter of the SPLās crapness though - does it really matter how Bohs would do? Rather odd defence of Villa that one.
Didnt Richie Foran have a good career in the SPL. Noel Hunt went from Sham Rovers to the SPL. Its not a defence of Villa by the way just I dont think SPL titles are much of a barmoter either. Did Bohs not beat Aberdeen home and away in a UEFA cup time a few years back. Derry City hockied Gretna aswell.
- Thereās no way Carew is performing at anything like the level Sutton was for Celtic. To choose one example Iāll never forget a blatantly injured Chris Sutton coming on at half time at home to Barcelona in the Champions League and bullying the fuck out of a Barca team that had strolled the first half. Iāve never seen Carew operating at that level and Iāve watched him a fair bit because I liked him as a player.
Dont get me wrong I liked Sutton. A real inspirational player I personally think there is more to Carew though.
And he was that good a player that he also played midfield. Thatās not a sign of weakness.
Perhaps generally not a good sign of a centre forward tho - Kuyt, Heskey, Smith etc
- Healy was never a regular in the Celtic side and certainly never under OāNeill.
I never asked was he a regular. Just had he SPL medals
- Celtic have been awful and picked up no medals in more years than Iād care to remember. Thereās no divine right to win the SPL - it may have a limited number of teams that can actually go and win the thing (reminds me of a league just south of Scotland) but it still takes winning. In recent seasons the UEFA Cup finalists have failed to win the SPL because of the competitiveness of the league. If the EPL was anything like as strong as itās proclaimed to be then the clubs would be hoovering up in the UEFA Cup but theyāre not.
[B]So the Wim Jansen winning side was a good one. Under Barnes/Dalglish Celtic still came second and won the Cup.
I fail to see the point of the Uefa cup. It was good as a knockout competition. Where is the reward for winning it? No champions leage qualification and with the amount of games involved it only strains your domestic form.[/B]
Bad players winning medals doesnāt make those medals worthless. The fact that Roque Junior won a world cup with Brazil doesnāt mean Brazil are shit.[/quote]
I never intimated that. John Oā Shea has countless medals for example. SPL medals imo are no real barometer of any success. Some of the sides in the SPL e.g Hearts would not survive in the Championship.
If the SPL is worthwhile why do Celtic fans have no time for Strachan yet he was won three titles in a row
Carew is better than Sutton?
KIB Man-that is frankly embarrassing from a lad that āseemedā to know a bit about soccer.
Guys like Roy OāDonovan and Wes Hoolahan have proven in recent seasons that thereās a gulf between the top of the Eircom League and medicority in the SPL
Rather odd barometer. Neither of these two were in the top bracket in our league IMO. A lot would agree with me, Iād say.
Where you from sledgehammer?
:
Originally Posted by therock67 View Post
Took the liberty of numbering the points
- How are Liverpool stretching further away from Aston Villa in terms of resources? Both are owned by wealthy American owners both have access to huge amounts of cash beyond their income levels but Villa are slightly more cautious about spending it.
Villa had some good times and some bad times under OāLeary. But you claimed that MON had the balls to take on the challenge of breaking into the top 4. Itās not much of a challenge if you consider yourself resigned to defeat on that score. Itās only worthy of praise if itās actually accomplished.
OK - Firstly I stated resources and prestige. Champions League money for a start is I would think increasing. Liverpool tend to go far in that competition generating a shit load of cash and prestige. The fact that Liverpool have been in 2 Champions League finals in recent years has attracted the likes of Torres, Keane etc. Even with a Randy Lerner on board it is extremely doubtful if we could go out and sign a Torres. Its one thing having huge money its another getting top class players in. Randy Lerner may be minted but he aint an Arab sheikh either.
The lack of prestige is surely an indictment of Aston Villa - hardly an argument to support their supposed superiority over Celtic. Youāre supposed to be arguing for the merits of Villa, not protesting about how hard they have it.
The difference between the domestic tv reveune earned by the bottom club in the EPL versus the top club is about 20m - Derby earned 36m in tv revenue last year. The Premier League have paid the clubs outside the top 4 higher increments than those in the top 4 in order to level out the earnings - the increases went from 55% for the 20th club to 25% for the top earning club. Not sure how this supports the notion that the gap is widening.
One of the reasons youāve fallen away is a lack of ambition to spend your money on ambitious signings - itās not a shortfall of cash that Villa fans should complain about.
DOL started well and finished with his managerial reputation in tatters by instigating a āplayerā coup against ellis. Ellis fired him and got MON on board (takeover was well under way at this stage). Getting rid of that wanker was one of the best decisions Ellis ever made. DOL hasnt been considered for a job since so I have a feeling there is a lot more to his sacking than meets the eye.
If anything under Randy Lerner Villa have been anything but cautious. 9m for ashley young, 12m for james milner. The only player we havent overpaid for is Carew.
Again, the money is there - so why complain about how hard it is to break into the Top 4. If that is Villaās aim then itās defeatist to be talking about how the gap cannot be bridged. Arsenal arenāt outspending Aston Villa - theyāre just a better run club.
Whatever about the mistakes made by DOL off the field, youāre overstating the progress made under MON to date. Heās brought about stability and progress from where ye finished in DOLās last season but heās achieved nothing yet.
- No Bohs wouldnāt survive. Guys like Roy OāDonovan and Wes Hoolahan have proven in recent seasons that thereās a gulf between the top of the Eircom League and medicority in the SPL. Not sure why youāre choosing the EL as a baromoter of the SPLās crapness though - does it really matter how Bohs would do? Rather odd defence of Villa that one.
Didnt Richie Foran have a good career in the SPL. Noel Hunt went from Sham Rovers to the SPL. Its not a defence of Villa by the way just I dont think SPL titles are much of a barmoter either. Did Bohs not beat Aberdeen home and away in a UEFA cup time a few years back. Derry City hockied Gretna aswell.
Ah God here we go. Richie Foran was reasonable in the SPL. Noel Hunt was good after a slow start - cracking attitude that lad. Didnāt Roy Keane do ok in the EPL? Not sure what this obsession is about the Eircom League. Paul McGrath came from there did he not? Of course players are going to leave the Eircom League and do well, itās just no more guaranteed in the SPL than it is anywhere else - look at the disaster under Stephen Kenny at Dunfermline as an example.
- Thereās no way Carew is performing at anything like the level Sutton was for Celtic. To choose one example Iāll never forget a blatantly injured Chris Sutton coming on at half time at home to Barcelona in the Champions League and bullying the fuck out of a Barca team that had strolled the first half. Iāve never seen Carew operating at that level and Iāve watched him a fair bit because I liked him as a player.
Dont get me wrong I liked Sutton. A real inspirational player I personally think there is more to Carew though.
You didnāt see enough of him. A great Celtic player.
And he was that good a player that he also played midfield. Thatās not a sign of weakness.
Perhaps generally not a good sign of a centre forward tho - Kuyt, Heskey, Smith etc
Clutching at straws there - Sutton must be a shit forward because the following dissimilar players are shit too. Rooney, Totti, Kaka, Ronaldo are all cracking forwards and all cracking midfielders. They prove nothing though.
- Healy was never a regular in the Celtic side and certainly never under OāNeill.
I never asked was he a regular. Just had he SPL medals
No, you said he had SPL medals. I asked you how many he had. I know he has a league cup medal but his most amount of appearances in a season was 12 so not sure whether that got him a medal or not.
- Celtic have been awful and picked up no medals in more years than Iād care to remember. Thereās no divine right to win the SPL - it may have a limited number of teams that can actually go and win the thing (reminds me of a league just south of Scotland) but it still takes winning. In recent seasons the UEFA Cup finalists have failed to win the SPL because of the competitiveness of the league. If the EPL was anything like as strong as itās proclaimed to be then the clubs would be hoovering up in the UEFA Cup but theyāre not.
So the Wim Jansen winning side was a good one. Under Barnes/Dalglish Celtic still came second and won the Cup.
Yeah it was a good sign under Jansen. And they won the League Cup under Barnes/Dalglish - not the Cup.
I fail to see the point of the Uefa cup. It was good as a knockout competition. Where is the reward for winning it? No champions leage qualification and with the amount of games involved it only strains your domestic form.
You seemed excited enough about it the other week.
Bad players winning medals doesnāt make those medals worthless. The fact that Roque Junior won a world cup with Brazil doesnāt mean Brazil are shit.
I never intimated that. John Oā Shea has countless medals for example. SPL medals imo are no real barometer of any success. Some of the sides in the SPL e.g Hearts would not survive in the Championship.
Thatās my point exactly about John OāShea. Does he make Manchester United crap because heās won medals. Itās simple to pick on the odd individual but it doesnāt support the larger point.
Youāve seen Hearts once this year - bit of a rash judgement. Theyāve gone seriously backwards in recent years though.
If the SPL is worthwhile why do Celtic fans have no time for Strachan yet he was won three titles in a row
I have time for Strachan, just think he can be tactically naive sometimes, but more importantly thereās been a lack of fight in some big games like Barcelona away, Huns (away last season; home this season), United away that worries me.
Hopefully Young will get there with Villa. If its not with us it will be with Chelsea or someone else. I expect Celtic to cash in on McGeady in Jan. Surely with his previous Champions League form McGeady will be snapped up by one of the English or top European sides? Will he fuck. He still hasnt had one sensational game for the ā26 countiesā (Bandage, 08) in 20 caps. He hasnt scored yet either for Ireland. Ashley Young is so far ahead of Mcgeady in goal scoring ability, crossing and dead balls that Iām not going to bother debating this further. As an Irish player I hope McGeady delivers on his promise dont get me wrong. Despite fleeting glimpses its only potential tho and if he is getting dropped before Maloney it doesnt look good.
Pele was supposed to be the greatest player of all time. As far as I remember did he not say Nicky Butt was the best midfielder at the WC in 2002. Am i supposed to take Peleās word as gospel based on his playing ability.
No offence KIB Man but you seem to watch a barrage of English football and little if anything else so of course youāre working from a narrow framework when comparing and contrasting players. Ashley Young has done nothing, zilch, to warrant being considered a better player than McGeady. He canāt get in the England squad ahead of the likes of Stewart Downing but heās a decent young player showing promising signs as far as I can tell.
[quote=āKIB manā]Hopefully Young will get there with Villa. If its not with us it will be with Chelsea or someone else. I expect Celtic to cash in on McGeady in Jan. Surely with his previous Champions League form McGeady will be snapped up by one of the English or top European sides? Will he fuck. He still hasnt had one sensational game for the ā26 countiesā (Bandage, 08) in 20 caps. He hasnt scored yet either for Ireland. Ashley Young is so far ahead of Mcgeady in goal scoring ability, crossing and dead balls that Iām not going to bother debating this further. As an Irish player I hope McGeady delivers on his promise dont get me wrong. Despite fleeting glimpses its only potential tho and if he is getting dropped before Maloney it doesnt look good.
Pele was supposed to be the greatest player of all time. As far as I remember did he not say Nicky Butt was the best midfielder at the WC in 2002. Am i supposed to take Peleās word as gospel based on his playing ability.[/quote]
How many Champions League games has Ashley Young starred in? You should work for Sky KIB. Your excellent at hyping up EPL players(Barry, Young, Andy Reid etc).