Bobby Sands MP - 30th Anniversary

Look, no offence here, but that’s plain idiocy. Of course a settlement was the aim. How else were they going to achieve a united Ireland? Do you think a guerilla army expected to actually become the government of a 32 county republic? Their aims, and the aims of any army, were to force politicians to negotiate terms favourable to their cause. Virtually every war ends with a settlement of some sort. You can’t “win” a war without it. The fact that there is one doesn’t, by its nature, mean somebody lost. And the fact that there was a settlement after a war means that the war had an influence on that settlement. The very existence of the military campaign (whether you agree with it or not) is what propelled Sinn Féin into power. They weren’t a political force before then.

You are deliberately or stupidly (probably both) confusing your opinion on the IRA campaign with the actual aims of the campaign itself.

You should be embarrassed by your stubborn insistence on making the same groundless point again and again.

:o :o

Fagan = the bhoy?

:o

they sold out on their economic aims

Yes the settlement the IRA were looking for was a date for Britiish withdrawal. It’s amazing what parts of history are remembered and which aren’t . To suggest the IRA fought for a negotiated settlement is ridiculous. They had lost popular support, the Brits easily had the upperhand - the outcome therefore was a negotiated settlement. Every insurgency depends on popular support for legitimacy. By the early 90s the IRA had lost theirs.

You could argue that the armed campaign and subsequent settlement gives republicans freedom to achieve freedom as Collins put it. But what is freedom in this case? It’s why the case for a united Ireland never made sense. Did republicans honestly think that 60% of the population of Norn Iron who have lived their for generations will just up sticks to Warrington? Do republicans honestly believe their quality of life would be better under Dublin rule. 80% of the NI workforce are employed by the Govt there.

A united Ireland is as far away as ever. And with peace and prosperity long may it continue

At least you have dropped your other outlandish claim about the IRA. In time, you may also drop this one.

could you run through SFs electoral results from the 80’s to 90’s in the free state & the 6 counties to show me the trend in them as the political representatives of the IRA losing support?

[quote=“KIB man, post: 586415”]
Yes the settlement the IRA were looking for was a date for Britiish withdrawal. It’s amazing what parts of history are remembered and which aren’t . To suggest the IRA fought for a negotiated settlement is ridiculous. They had lost popular support, the Brits easily had the upperhand - the outcome therefore was a negotiated settlement. Every insurgency depends on popular support for legitimacy. By the early 90s the IRA had lost theirs.[/quote]

So contrary to what you’ve said previously you now accept that they did have “popular support” in the 80s? Therefore their struggle was legitimate and Sands was a hero in the eyes of the people they represented. And do refrain from repeating the same argument about the negotiated settlement in your response if you can. It’s outlandish to claim that a negotiated settlement is a failure in itself. By that logic the Brits lost too. And everyone who fought every war lost when ceasefire terms were negotiated.

Anyway you’re choosing to just ignore the entire point again or you’re too blind to see it. You keep talking about what happened after Sands. You fail to recognise that Sands politicised republicanism and brought about a situation where Sinn Féin enjoyed political support. That was a legitimacy to the struggle that Sands died for. His aim on the hunger strike wasn’t a united Ireland. You may have been out that day in school.

[quote=“KIB man, post: 586415”]
You could argue that the armed campaign and subsequent settlement gives republicans freedom to achieve freedom as Collins put it. But what is freedom in this case? It’s why the case for a united Ireland never made sense. Did republicans honestly think that 60% of the population of Norn Iron who have lived their for generations will just up sticks to Warrington? Do republicans honestly believe their quality of life would be better under Dublin rule. 80% of the NI workforce are employed by the Govt there. [/quote]

Again you’ve misinterpreted the point of republicanism. Nobody ever argued anyone should go back to Britain (other than the military forces). The struggle was for the right for independence from Britain. That’s a battle that continues politically but in one ridiculous paragraph you have concluded that a united Ireland never made sense for spurious reasons that aren’t relevant to the situation in the first place. Your complete lack of understanding of the objectives of the IRA and the means to achieve a united Ireland is ultimately helpful because it undermines the rest of the nonsense you have posted on here and highlights the rush to force the argument to suit the conclusions you wanted to draw.

Argue away that Sands died in vain or that his motives were misguided etc. but don’t pretend to understand the situation if you want to suggest that political negotiations would have been an affront to him. You could hardly be more wrong.

I was going to start this thread yesterday, but I feared it would descend into the shit it has.

But thank you dancing baby for starting it anyway.

RIP Bobby Sands, we remember you on your 30th anniversary.

This is about Bobby Sands you moron. Who said anything about people upping sticks and heading to the UK? :rolleyes:

will respond later amigos

:clap: :clap: :clap:

31 years ago this Saturday he gave his life. God bless you Bobby Sands. One of Irelands greatest sons

RIP Bobby Sands.

Bobby Sands will never be forgotten.

:ireland:

Great article

Over Three Decades On The Death Of Bobby Sands Still Resonates
Posted: 05/05/2012 12:00 am

“I am standing on the threshold of another trembling world. May God have mercy on my soul.”

With these words, written 31 years ago, Bobby Sands began the hunger strike which culminated in his death after 66 days on May 5 1981.

It was followed by the deaths of nine others who made the same sacrifice: Francis Hughes, Patsy O’Hara, Raymond McCreesh, Joe McDonnell, Martun Hurson, Kevin Lynch, Kieran Doherty, Thomas McElwee and Michael Devine.

Just over three decades on it is perhaps difficult to appreciate the significance of the sacrifice made by Sands and his comrades, which even if you disagree with the aims for which they gave their lives remains a monumental testament to the power of the human spirit.

By the time of his death in 1981 the ‘troubles’ in the Six Counties in the North of Ireland had been raging since the late 1960s, when the Provisional IRA emerged from the failure of successive British governments to reform the sectarian and gerrymandered province, in which the minority Catholic/Nationalist population were regarded as second class citizens, denied the same political and civil rights as their protestant/unionist counterparts.

Young, otherwise ordinary working class Catholics such as Bobby Sands were forced to make a choice between acceptance of a status quo under which they and their families were persecuted, intimidated, and forced out of their homes by loyalist mobs backed up by a bigoted police force, or resistance.

Sands chose the path of resistance and was arrested and imprisoned twice as a result. Upon his second arrest in 1976 he was interrogated, tortured, and sentenced to 14 years in prison in a trial presided over by three judges with no jury. During his first period of incarceration - 1972 to 1976 - Sands had used his time well, immersing himself in books and study groups with his comrades to learn about the history of the Irish liberation struggle, national liberation and anti-colonial struggles throughout the developing world, literature, and the Irish language.

The removal of the political status of the prisoners had begun in 1976 under the then Labour government led by James Callaghan. This was timed to tie in with the construction of the new purpose built Maze Prison just outside Belfast, where both Republican and Loyalist prisoners were to be transferred from the existing Long Kesh Prison Camp nearby and other detention facilities across the province. Margaret Thatcher and the Tories, replacing Callaghan’s Labour government in 1979, were determined to continue the policy of criminalization of Republican prisoners as part of a new offensive against Irish Republicanism in general.

As determined as Sands and his comrades were to see their hunger strike through to the end, Thatcher was equally determined not to budge one inch from the policy of criminalisation. This continued even after Sands was elected as a British Member of Parliament in the midst of his hunger strike in a local by-election, and even in the face of growing international condemnation over the British government’s unwillingness to compromise.

The prisoners had five demands:

  1. The right not to wear a prison uniform;
  2. The right not to do prison work;
  3. The right of free association with other prisoners, and to organise educational and recreational pursuits;
  4. The right to one visit, one letter and one parcel per week;
  5. Full restoration of remission lost through the protest

The enormity of what Bobby Sands and his comrades who died along with him on hunger strike achieved was reflected in its global impact. Upon Sands’s death, opposition MPs in the Indian Parliament observed a minute’s silence. Protest marches were held against the British government and in tribute to Sands and his comrades.

Following their example, Nelson Mandela led a hunger by prisoners on Robben Island to improve their own conditions. In Tehran the name of the street in which the British Embassy was located was changed to Bobby Sands Street, forcing it to relocate its entrance to avoid the embarrassment of Bobby Sands Street appearing on the letterhead of its stationery and official documents. Cuban President Fidel Castro spoke about Sands and his comrades during one of his speeches.

“Next to this example, what were the three days of Christ on Calvary as a symbol of human sacrifice down through the centuries?”

Even Margaret Thatcher, the main adversary of Sands and his comrades, was moved to say years later that

“It was possible to admire the courage of Sands and the other hunger strikers who died.”

But perhaps the most significant and powerful tribute came in the form of a letter from Palestinian prisoners incarcerated in the Israeli desert prison of Nafha. The letter was smuggled out and reached the Falls Road in West Belfast in July 1981. It reads:

"To the families of the martyrs oppressed by the British ruling class. To the families of Bobby Sands and his martyred comrades.
"We, revolutionaries of the Palestinian people who are under the terrorist rule of Zionism, write you this letter from the desert prison of Nafha.

"We extend our salutes and solidarity with you in the confrontation against the oppressive terrorist rule enforced upon the Irish people by the British ruling elite.

"We salute the heroic struggle of Bobby Sands and his comrades, for they have sacrificed the most valuable possession of any human being. They gave their lives for freedom.

"From here in Nafha prison, where savage snakes and desert sands penetrate our cells, from here under the yoke of Zionist occupation, we stand alongside you. From behind our cell bars, we support you, your people and your revolutionaries who have chosen to confront death.

"Since the Zionist occupation, our people have been living under the worst conditions. Our militants who have chosen the road of liberty and chosen to defend our land, people and dignity, have been suffering for many years. In the prisons, we are confronting Zionist oppression and their systematic application of torture. Sunlight does not enter our cell. Basic necessities are not provided. Yet we confront the Zionist hangmen, the enemies of life.

"Many of our militant comrades have been martyred under torture by the fascists allowing them to bleed to death. Others have been martyred because Israeli prison administrators do not provide needed medical care.

"The noble and just hunger strike is not in vain. In our struggle against the occupation of our homeland, for freedom from the new Nazis, it stands as a clear symbol of the historical challenge against the terrorists. Our people in Palestine and in the Zionist prisons are struggling as your people are struggling against the British monopolies and we will both continue until victory.

“On behalf of the prisoners of Nafha, we support your struggle and cause of freedom against English domination, against Zionism and against fascism in the world.”

With 2000 Palestinians currently on hunger strike in Israeli prisons, hundreds of them in Nafha, Bobby Sands and the other nine who died on hunger strike over 30 years ago continue to provide inspiration to political prisoners everywhere.

It’s being reasonably argued? Don’t think it’s descended into shite?

12 months later?

32 years ago today he began his hunger strike

Is it true he was buried in a pencil case?

ffs cm have some respect.

it was a trocaire lent box

I heard he was made into a pencil case.

No surprise to see the disrespect being shown by the forum’s barstool loyalists yet again.