Boxing Thread

Marquez probably edged it but it wasn’t decisive enough for the judges to go against the biggest name in boxing. It wasn’t a clear-cut victory like a lot of people seem to be suggesting today, it just looked like one because (1) everybody has gotten used to seeing Pacquaio annihilate his opponents, and (2) because everyone thought Marquez was past it. Cognitive bias kicked in then I think, the fight differed so much from what people expected it probably looked like Marquez was further ahead than he was.

He fought a brilliant defensive fight, and completely disrupted Pacquaio, but he never went after him and never showed a major offensive threat. I don’t know that you can say it was a robbery when he never staggered his opponent once, and when his opponent was the busier fighter. It’s tough on Marquez but that’s boxing. The Mayweather-Pacquaio fight is still there to be made and it was going to take something more dramatic for the judges to take Manny’s belts from him.

Taking into account the previous fights Marquez should have been given this one , no doubt about it , that 2 possibly 3 times he has beaten pacman and been given none of the decisions .

It’s hard on him but the first two fights have nothing to do with it. The statistics show Pacman landed the more shots, and even if Marquez landed pretty much every significant one, that shows that Pacquaio was the more aggressive fighter which is hugely important. People pay to see exciting, attacking fighters, not someone who sits back and counter punches his way through the bout.

Personally I felt Marquez edged it, and the 116-112 decision was crazy. BUT, Marquez was the challenger and the challenger has to attack. He didn’t. He never knocked Pacquaio down. He never staggered him. I don’t think he even landed a combination. Of course neither did Manny but he’s the champ, the onus was on Marquez.

Manny’s Legacy Minus Mayweather

Is it possible to appreciate the fighters that comprise a great rivalry as actual individuals?

Regardless of how Pacquiao-Mayweather ends (should the fight ever be made), the outcome would have little impact on Pacquiao’s overall legacy…

Since his untimely death, reflections on Joe Frazier have emphasized, correctly, that his boxing legacy is not exclusively about his rivalry with Muhammad Ali. The death of Joe Frazier provides fertile ground to ask a basic question about rivalries in boxing: is it possible to appreciate the fighters that comprise a great rivalry as individuals?

On Saturday, Nov. 12, 2011, Manny Pacquiao takes on Juan Manuel Marquez in the third installment of a trilogy that dates back to 2004. True fans of the sport are curious to see if Marquez can utilize his great ring generalship to outbox Pacquiao. Marquez is, after all, the last fighter to give Pacquiao a competitive fight. Most fans, however, will be watching Pacquiao-Marquez III with their mind on what Pacquiao’s performance tells us about how he might fare against Floyd “Money” Mayweather. While Pacquiao and Mayweather cannot be considered rivals in the classic sense, the fact that they haven’t fought doesn’t mean their modern legacies aren’t attached at the hip.

That their legacies are so linked is unfortunate because many of the events that define their respective greatness aren’t recent and have little to do with each other. Because Mayweather’s enigmatic career has been examined recently, we’ll focus on the exploits of Manny Pacquiao. We will do so in three different areas: technical skills, boxing accomplishments (emphasis on the pre-welterweight era) and overall legacy.

Technical Skills

Pacquiao is most often described as a “pressure fighter.” Because pressure is a nebulous concept in boxing and applies to a widely divergent set of approaches, it is mostly unhelpful in any detailed discussion of fighting styles. Pacquiao’s success, for example, is not solely about a random, non-specific pressure, but rather, how he applies a very specific kind of pressure.

Pacquiao has evolved into a devastating puncher because his physical tools and footwork facilitate forceful combination punching from any angle, with little recoil, regardless of how his body is contorted or where he is the ring. To use a basketball analogy, Pacquiao seems to always be in “triple-threat-position,” ready to throw any punch with either hand. Unlike most fighters, he doesn’t need full body extension to generate power. He doesn’t forecast his punches, doesn’t telegraph his movements and is, consequently, almost impossible to time and predict.

In addition, Pacquiao has magically turned counterpunching on its head, mastering the art of the second-order counterpunch: he uses offense to bait an opponent to counterpunch, only to exploit their counterpunching to launch an assault. It’s as if Manny Pacquiao takes advantage of fighters who think they are smarter than they are—fighters think that patience and timing can disarm Pacquiao, when Pacquiao’s barrage is actually the more calculated approach.

Boxing Accomplishments

Manny Pacquiao became well known in boxing circles after his 2003 TKO victory over Marco Antonio Barrera. At the time, Barrera sat very high on boxing’s pound-for-pound lists after a great run of victories: a clinical deconstruction of “Prince” Naseem Hamed (2001), a decision win against Erik Morales (2002, avenging a 2000 loss) and victories over Johnny Tapia (2002) and Kevin Kelley (2003, by TKO).

On the night of Nov. 15, 2003 Barrera was expected to outclass Pacquiao, who had recently moved up from the super bantamweight division and figured to be in over his head. Instead, Barrera ran into an offensive buzzsaw, suffering a TKO loss in round 11.

This was no random TKO—Barrera was thoroughly dominated and was behind on every scorecard by a wide margin at the time of the TKO. A star was born in Manny Pacquiao.
Pacquiao’s only loss since defeating Barrera in 2003 is a decision loss to Erik Morales in 2005, which he convincingly avenged twice in 2006 (first by TKO then by KO). He then knocked out an undefeated Jorge Solis (2007) and defeated Barrera again by decision (2008) before facing Juan Manuel Marquez again in 2008 (a controversial split-decision victory for Pacquiao).

To put his accomplishments in perspective: between 1998 and 2008, Pacquiao effectively defeated most of the elite fighters in the flyweight, super bantamweight, featherweight, super featherweight and lightweight divisions, none of which could be called talent-poor by any standards.

Boxing Legacy

What strikes us about Pacquiao’s decade-long run is his lack of regard for odds or expectations: he has never been shy about moving up in weight and immediately challenging the best at higher weight classes. In addition, when fighting opponents for a second or third time, Pacquiao always learns from his past experiences and comes back better prepared. He is one of the great sponges for boxing knowledge that the sport has ever seen: even after he was a world champion and among the ten best pound-for-pound fighters in the world, Pacquiao continued to improve as a pure boxer.

Were Pacquiao’s career to have ended before his move to welterweight, he would have been considered a shoe-in Hall of Famer and one of the five best southpaws to ever live. His dominance at the welterweight division, however, has been so thorough, complete and awe-inspiring that it’s forced us to reconsider his boxing legacy in its entirety. Pacquiao is no longer merely a Hall of Famer, but must soon be considered among the all-time pound-for-pound greats.

Make no mistake, however—we want to see Manny Pacquiao fight Floyd Mayweather for all the reasons that it would be a dream matchup: the clash of styles, the drama and the inevitable trash talk from all sides. The truth, however, is that regardless of how Pacquiao-Mayweather ends (should the fight ever be made), the outcome would have little impact on Pacquiao’s overall legacy—he’s an all-time great (the same can probably be said for Mayweather).

It is for this reason that we should be careful about how much we allow talk of Pacquiao-Mayweather to dictate how we think about Manny Pacquiao. Instead, let’s appreciate greatness for what it is, while it exists. Boxing is, after all, the “hurt business,” a dangerous game where nothing, and no one, should be taken for granted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axDOZ5xnWQI

dp

excellent article. No doubt Floyd e-mailed the author acusing him of talking shit about him.

The Mayweathers :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK3CYN2EHKo

Strange story this given that 10 days ago Bob Arum was saying they weren’t going to seek a fight with Mayweather. Probably won’t happen anyway. It might almost be better if it doesn’t. There’s no way it could ever live up to the hype.

Pacquiao confirms negotiations with Mayweather team

by Camille B. Naredo, abs-cbnNEWS.com

Posted at 11/24/2011 3:30 PM | Updated as of 11/24/2011 11:30 PM

MANILA, Philippines - Filipino boxing champion Manny “Pacman” Pacquiao has confirmed that negotiations are ongoing with the camp of unbeaten American Floyd Mayweather Jr. regarding a possible mega-fight.

“Ongoing ang negotiation sa fight namin ni Mayweather, hindi pa final (Negotiations are ongoing for my fight with Mayweather, but nothing is final),” Pacquiao said in a press conference after his homecoming in General Santos City.

Pacquiao said that Mayweather may be more eager to fight him now, after his fight against Mexico’s Juan Manuel Marquez last November 12 in Las Vegas.

Although he won via majority decision, Pacquiao was not his usual explosive self, and admitted that Marquez’s counter-punching style gave him trouble. Many analysts and observers have said that Marquez deserved to win the fight, rather than Pacquiao.

“Nakita n’ya [Mayweather] na, ‘pwede ko na labanan si Manny, dahil medyo nahirapan s’ya si Marquez, e si Marquez, binugbog ko [Mayweather] lang’,” Pacquiao said of Mayweather. (Mayweather may be thinking, I can fight Pacquiao now because he had trouble against Marquez, and I was able to beat up Marquez).

Mayweather routed Marquez completely when they met in 2009.

It was reported earlier this week that Pacquiao’s adviser, Michael Koncz, had traveled to Las Vegas to meet with Top Rank chief executive officer Bob Arum regarding the Mayweather fight.

Pacquiao is hoping that the negotiations will fall into place so that his much awaited mega-fight with Mayweather will finally happen.

“'Yan ang pinakaa-abangan ng boxing fans,” he said. (This is what boxing fans are waiting for).

Also, Matthew Macklin reckons he might get a shot at Martinez for Paddy’s Day next year.

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/blog/170327-macklin-believes-he-will-get-his-shot-at-martinez-on-march-17

Middleweight contender Mathew Macklin is convinced only Floyd Mayweather Jr stands between himself and a world title shot at Argentine ace Sergio Martinez in Madison Square on St Patrick’s Day 2012.

But the Irishman, unlucky to lose a split decision to German WBA titleholder Felix Sturm last time out in July, is quietly confident that a pound for pound contest between Martinez, The RING’s middleweight champion, and America’s undefeated welterweight king Mayweather (42-0, 26 knockouts) is not going to happen.

“Realistically there are bigger marquee fights for Martinez than me. There’s Julio Chavez Jr, Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr,” said Macklin, who is now looked after by Martinez’s promoter, Lou Di Bella. “But I don’t think the Pacquiao one is up for consideration and Bob Arum has already said that Chavez Jr. won’t be fighting Martinez.

“So I am pretty sure it is going to be me and Martinez on Paddy’s day at the Garden. The only thing that could de-rail the fight is if Martinez fights Mayweather instead. But I think that’s unlikely. I am confident my next fight will be against Sergio Martinez in March.

“In terms of the middleweight division I am the leading contender. Martinez is considered the number one. Sturm was widely regarded as his closest rival and the number two. But everyone has seen me beat Sturm up in the summer - so that kind of qualifies me as the leading contender.”

Just when he finds out for sure remains to be seen but RING No 4-rated middleweight Macklin (28-3, 19 KOs) is hoping to get the nod for his March 17 date with Martinez (48-2-2, 27 KOs) before Christmas - with official confirmation coming in January.

“I think I will know within the next couple of weeks, early to mid-December, but I don’t think it will be signed off until after January 9,” the 29-year-old Brit said on Box Nation TV.

Up and comers Canelo Alvarez (welterweight) and Adrien Broner (super featherweight) both dispatched their opponents with ease last night. Alvarez battered Kermit Cintron and Broner’s opponent was a bit of a brawler. Broner fights remarkably similar to Mayweather without being as good obviously and his defensive style is identical.

Alvarez must be the most Irish looking Mexican in history

http://punch.ocregister.com/files/2010/05/Saul_Alvarez.jpg

Isn’t his name Saul Alvarez, WTB?

Yes, but Canelo is what everyone calls him.

What does Canelo transalte to?

According to wikipedia it means cinnamon, a reference to his unusually ginger complexion for a Mexican. I wonder if golden boy are going to line up a big one for him now? He has 39 professional victories already and he’s only 21.

Who’d be a big one now for him? The likes of Cotto or Margarito?

He was calling out Floyd last night :lol:

Julio Chavez Jr would be a huge fight for him and would make a lot of money I’d say. James Kirkland would be the other one.

Matthew Macklin saying on OTB this evening that the Sergio Martinez fight is a near certainty. Paddy’s Day in New York apparently.

In other news, Floyd Mayweather Jr has been calling out Manny Pacquiao for a change, exhorting him to “sign the contract” both on twitter and in a video clip. More than likely bullshit.

Margarito has also been making his feelings on Miguel Cotto known, on the HBO 24/7 preview of Saturday’s rematch.

24/7 episodes for Cotto-Margarito. Brilliant as usual.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj6uXMZCg9k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGUNde2Q3w8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENZqhhYko-M

This could turn into an absolute fucking war of a fight. The hatred is very real, especially from Cotto’s perspective.

To give it a bit of background, Margarito handed Cotto the first defeat of his illustrious career in 2008 (the only fighter besides Pacquiao to ever beat him) when Cotto outboxed him in the early rounds but Margarito started to walk through his punches later on and eventually battered him into submission.

This is what Cotto normally looks like:

This is how he looked after Margarito Tko’d him:

http://puertorico.countrytoolbox.com/uploads/attachments/wpattach/cottoplastered.jpg

Six months later however, loaded hand wraps were found in Margarito’s dressing room in advance of the Margarito-Shane Mosley fight. The wraps has been coated or soaked in a compound not unlike plaster of paris designed to harden within the glove. The wraps were confiscated and Mosley knocked Margarito out in the 9th round.

Now, Cotto is convinced that Margarito used the same wraps against him and wants to make him suffer for it. In his own words “He played with my health, now I’m going to play with his.”

This is a reference to Margarito’s right eye, which has had two operations on it since Manny Pacquiao battered the living shit out of him the last time he was in the ring, over a year ago. Margarito is probably fortunate that Pacquiao took pity on him and didn’t finish his career there and then (Pacquiao looked to the ref to stop the fight in the 11th and laid back completely in the 12th). Nevertheless, the damage done to his eye still required an operation to repair the smashed orbital bone soon after and an operation to remove a cataract earlier this year.

That injury had put the fight in doubt right up a few weeks ago when the New York boxing commission finally granted Margarito a license.

Cotto is the better boxer, and is a genuinely hugely popular peoples’ champion. Margarito, with his satanic beard and Paulie from the Soprano’s style tracksuits looks like a gangster and is the most hated man in boxing. He is as tough as they come though, and if Cotto hasn’t worn him down by the later rounds, he could draw Cotto into the kind of hell he won’t be able to survive in.
Definitely has the potential to be the fight of the year this one.

Its going to be fucking epic. Thanks for that WTB, had slipped my mind.

It has the ingredients for a classic. Cotto now has a cause and a feeling of justification he didn’t before, thats not to be under estimated. Along with his fathers passing i don’t see him failing in the heart or endurance stakes. Previously, and for most of his life, he was a star and a protege and maybe had a slight sense of entitlement in the ring. He thought he had his job done that night and zoned out, there is very few people who can psychologically get themselves back on track after that. His mother and the changing of trainers is worrying though for him.

Margarito is a tough bastard at the end of the day, and always dangerous due to this toughness. Its pretty clear to a distant observer though he cheated, probably more times than anyone knows. Its probably got to do with where he came from, where you cheat to survive. That doesn’t make it ok, but understandable to a degree.

Having said all that i hope Cotto knocks the bollix off him, and i think he probably should, as he is the better boxer.

I think the standards around these weights are as good as almost any other time in history. Maybe boxing isn’t as high profile, but the standard is shit hot. I think these 2 fighters, more than faggot Mayweather, put Manny’s success over last few years into perspective. These are 2 brilliant fighters in different ways, and Manny is really streets ahead of them.

On a fote note, was delighted to see Danny Green get the beating he deserves the other night. What a load of over blown bollix that lad is. Aussies :rolleyes:

I don’t think so Kev. Margarito took some shots against Cotto that night, the best Cotto could offer. It didn’t wobble him once and while it is likely Margarito was packing that night, he wore Cotto down and Cotto had emptied his tank, packing or not I don’t think it made that much a difference. Cotto was shot physically, it wasn’t punishment that finished him that night. It was heart.