Congress 2009

This weekend the gaa congress is to hold as important a vote as has been held into the association for a long, long time. Forget permitting the playing of soccer and rugby in croke park, the vote on the experimental rules as applied to the national leagues will have a bigger impact on the games than anything else we’ve seen in recent times.

The referees committee are firmly behind the new rules, as are central council. However, along with high profile managers such as Brian Cody, Mickey Harte, and Jack O’Connor, the GPA have now officially declared their opposition to the new system. The rule’s advocates are suggesting that they have led to a much higher quality of game in this years national leagues, but does anyone really believe that players ending up on the sideline for yellow card offences is not going to cause mayhem this summer?

Mac will be pleased to know I am not against the changes. I will be getting onto Liam O Neill next time I see him at the local school

Would you not wait until Caoimhaoin gives his opinion before making up your mind?

:smiley:

Personally I think they’ll cause mayhem. In a high impact sport like hurling, being sent to the line for a yellow card is completely ridiculous. They say the reason they’re being applied to hurling is to cut out certain fouls like the arm around the neck, but nevertheless a player picking up a yellow card for something much simpler will still get the line.

Unwanted by the players. Unwanted by the managers. They’re only wanted by the old farts in central council.

Will ruin hurling imo. Get rid of the idea or keep it to the football only.

Personally I think they’ll cause mayhem. In a high impact sport like hurling, being sent to the line for a yellow card is completely ridiculous. They say the reason they’re being applied to hurling is to cut out certain fouls like the arm around the neck, but nevertheless a player picking up a yellow card for something much simpler will still get the line.

Unwanted by the players. Unwanted by the managers. They’re only wanted by the old farts in central council.[/quote]

The referees say they are in favour of them. But if the refs applied the current system of ticking, yellow card and red card correctly then it would go a long way to solving the problems.

Often a player would get a yellow card for a pull mis-timed by a split second. Everyone knows there was no malice in it but a card would have to be given, under the new rules he would then be gone for the rest of the game, hardly seems fair.

It would also hinder the weaker counties as they mightn’t have the same strenght in dept on the bench as the stronger counties have.

In general, hurling games tend to be fine as they are. If anything referees try to intervene too much in games and I’ve seen far more games ruined by whistle happy refs than indiscipline. Why the fook can’t they just leave it alone! This nonsense of applying the same rule changes to hurling and football has to stop. Someone needs to point out to the auld boys that they are two different sports.

I think it’s gas that only the refs and the administrators can’t recognise the drawback in making a guy who’s trained hard for six months sit out the crucial stages of a championship game for the sake of a fucking yellow card.

Says a lot about how the organisation is run actually.

:smiley:

:D:D

I think the experimental rules are a joke.

It represents effectively a red card on a yellow card. The substitute thing adds more farce to the set-up.

Couple of things are a higher priority to sort out discipline:

  1. Define a foul
  2. Apply it consistently

I think they will stay though. Mainly due to the fact that they were brought back after being previously discarded.

Agree with that. They are two different sports, Football is way better to watch and play with theses rules. The problem with them is the refs getting used to them, but that will come in time. John Evans has already stated that the rules have helped his Tipp team due to the fact that they play open quick football, surely this has to be encouraged. I have heard that it was quite obvious Armagh were really struggling with the rules the last day against Cork and they had lost alot of their edge.

One problem i do see with them is team say at underage or 2nd and 3rd teams in clubs who struggle for numbers if theses come across the board we’ll see teams like that struggle, but of course you could say thats their problem and they should have 20 at a game, but sometimes thats just not going to happen.

Hurling doesn’t have the problems Football has for the consistant fouling, and the fouls they are trying to stamp out in hurling are almost impossible to police. The ones i’m thinking of are the little battles that take place just before a high ball comes in between two players. The stuff KK are accused of doing, but i don’t buy into it really, it happens all over hurling, right down to the level i play at and its just KK are physically better and bigger than everyone at the moment.

Sean Moran’s take on the rule changes:

It’s time disruptive fouls were firmly tackled

SEN MORAN

On Gaelic Games : The experimental disciplinary rules worked well in the National Leagues and deserve support

THIS WEEKEND the GAA once more comes to grips with the most deeply-rooted problem facing the association: the culture of indiscipline within its games. This years annual congress will debate the future of the experimental disciplinary rules, as trialled during the current National Leagues.

Critics of the Disciplinary Task Forces proposals will take issue with the phrase culture of indiscipline but how else can it be described?

Its intended meaning here is that many teams and managers fundamentally resist the notion of being accountable to rules and resist as stubbornly as they can attempts to enforce compliance.

At least the proposals down for debate at congress this week have, unlike their 2005 predecessors, had a proper trial. The results of that trial have been encouraging. Each week the task force has put out statistics showing that there are more scores from play, a greater proportion of playing time over the 70 minutes and crucially, fewer fouls.

So why is there such visceral opposition regardless of whether it manages to derail the proposals to accepting the experimental provisions as permanent rule changes? Why do players and managers seem to feel that a tougher approach to foul play will disadvantage them?

And not just any managers: Kilkennys Brian Cody and Tyrones Mickey Harte, of the respective current All-Ireland champions, have prominently opposed the proposals and have been joined by Kerrys Jack OConnor, the next most successful current manager at All-Ireland level.

In the Gaelic Players Association statement yesterday evening the principal reasons given for the overwhelming negativity towards the proposals actually had nothing to do with their merits but with their enforcement.

Inconsistency of application is a potential problem with any set of rules but why would these be less acceptable if unevenly applied than the current rules. Surely the parameters of any code of conduct have to be established before their consistency can be worked on?

Fear of unwarranted dismissal was also mentioned in the GPA statement but that is completely subjective. Players in general are often reticent about agreeing that any infraction merits dismissal so any rule changes that make such a sanction more likely was always unlikely to find favour.

For managers, opposition to the substance of the proposals are partly because the desire to play on the edge is seen as a valid approach, albeit that such passionate engagement makes overstepping the mark inevitable. But if a team goes out to play on the edge, they will also occasionally fall off it.

Once a player is sent off on one of those yellows, said OConnor this week, he wont tackle to save his life in the next game. What the yellow card does is it effectively takes the tackle out of the game. Its as simple as that. They are taking the physicality out of the game.

But if a player cant tackle without committing one of the listed infractions hes breaking the rules. To oppose the task force proposals is to assert the right of a player effectively to get away with it.

What tends to be overlooked is that the argument is not about what constitutes foul play all of the experimental yellow card infractions that require a player to leave the field but be replaced are already contrary to rule but about the consequences of that indiscipline.

Remember the fouls that have been categorised as highly disruptive are: pulling down an opponent, tripping an opponent, deliberately body colliding, bringing an arm or hurley around the neck of an opponent and remonstrating aggressively with match officials. There is nothing ambiguous about any of these; they are all unacceptable. In other words no legitimate use of physicality is affected.

By requiring a player who commits such an infraction to leave the field the proposals are simply raising the stakes for acts of indiscipline.

You might have an isolated incident, said Cody last week in stating his opposition, but the rules are there to govern those things anyway. If its a red-card offence then hes sent off. And thats fine. If he gets a yellow then thats a warning and if hes stupid enough after that then hell go then.

But to be gone for the match on a yellow card, I dont like it. Its a shame to see a player getting a yellow card maybe five minutes into the game. It could happen in a Leinster final, or an All-Ireland semi-final or final. For maybe a clumsy challenge, but certainly not something deliberate. I dont think players go out to deliberately do anything stupid. I dont think there is any problem in the game.

Firstly, this would have the effect of indulging unacceptable behaviour because cautioning effectively allows twice as many fouls before decisive action is taken.

Secondly, Codys comments and he isnt unique in this typify an attitude within the games that the player committing the infraction is in some way a sympathetic figure, who accidentally gets into trouble.

Even if the actions arent deliberate and plenty of them are they arent allowed and unfairly disadvantage the opposition. The question is: how can they effectively be discouraged?

Harte in his Irish News column has argued the rules as they stand would be sufficiently effective if properly enforced but the evidence painstakingly assembled by ONeills task force is that the listed infractions arent adequately dealt with under current rules and have therefore become more common than is acceptable and worth the penalty incurred.

Read again the above list of highly disruptive fouls and work out which of them is worth encouraging.

Other arguments have tried to create a distinction between football and hurling and maintain that the latter doesnt have the same problem with calculated fouling. All of the empirical evidence is on the other side. Not alone are there the infractions specific to hurling as listed above but those that are common to both codes are not in short supply in hurling.

If serious about eliminating unacceptable behaviour, the GAA have to tilt the balance of convenience against the perpetrator. Disruptive fouls that disadvantage skilful players operating within the rules have to be turned into liabilities for the transgressor.

Another argument asks how small clubs will cope with the universal adoption of these proposals, presumably on the grounds that they mightnt have sufficient numbers to support an extravagant fouling habit. The answer is that they must learn not to foul. Anyway, many such clubs because of demographic pressures have to field very young players. Which regime better protects their interests?

The comparison has been made before but parking in Dublin before clamping was introduced was impossible because motorists felt breaking the law worth the risk of a fine that might or might not be enforced. Clamping was greeted at the time as an infringement of human rights but parking spaces became available because breaking the law was no longer worth the penalty.

Where does the GAA want the balance of convenience to lie?

e-mail: smoran@irishtimes.com

I’m with Sean Moran here. Cody is contradicting himself as well.
Ultimately it will come down to the refs to get it right.
Just adjust yer coaching lads, everyone else has to.

[quote=“Watch The Break”]Sean Moran’s take on the rule changes:

Remember the fouls that have been categorised as highly disruptive are: pulling down an opponent, tripping an opponent, deliberately body colliding, bringing an arm or hurley around the neck of an opponent and remonstrating aggressively with match officials. There is nothing ambiguous about any of these; they are all unacceptable. In other words no legitimate use of physicality is affected.

[/quote]

Moran is essentially still missing the point on this note though. How can he say that no legitimate use of physicality is affected? That’s simply not true. The yellow cards are not just being given for the fouls referred to. If that was the case then he would have a point.

What do ya mean by that? why aren’t they?

Hurling is a high speed, contact sport. I’ve often gotten yellow cards for fouls other than those mentioned here, and I’m sure plenty of other lads have as well. If it was just about those specific fouls then the refs could have been given powers to send players to the line for specifically those. Lads can get yellow carded for more harmless incidents though. Stuff that is acceptable and can be just a matter of poor timing or a forward making the most of a heavy challenge.

I think you’re missing the whole point of it though. The new yellow cards are ONLY for those offences listed. The high speed fouls you are talking about previously will result now in a ‘black book’ or ‘tick’ or whatever you want to call it, where you would previously have got a yellow card. ie you’ll need to two of these to get the line, same as before, but now your team can replace you.
It’ll actually be much harder for a team to be down to 14 men than before. As you’ll have to do something fierce bad - strike with the hurley, punch a lad in the face - for that to happen ie a straight red card.
If an awful lot of fellas are under the misapprehension you are it would be a shame for the rules to be voted out for this reason.

[quote=“gola”]I think you’re missing the whole point of it though. The new yellow cards are ONLY for those offences listed. The high speed fouls you are talking about previously will result now in a ‘black book’ or ‘tick’ or whatever you want to call it, where you would previously have got a yellow card. ie you’ll need to two of these to get the line, same as before, but now your team can replace you.
It’ll actually be much harder for a team to be down to 14 men than before. As you’ll have to do something fierce bad - strike with the hurley, punch a lad in the face - for that to happen ie a straight red card.
If an awful lot of fellas are under the misapprehension you are it would be a shame for the rules to be voted out for this reason.[/quote]

I understand that gola, and to be honest you nearly always had to do something like that to get a red card. The problem remains that in a game that moves as fast as hurling an accidental collision of some sort can still be interpreted as a highly disruptive foul as these rules are understood and as we’ve seen in the league. Tony Griffin for example got one for a completely innocuous tackle and if I remember correctly he got another one for a dive by Shane O’Neil against Cork.

Now last year he’d have got a yellow and sure no problem. But this year, imagine that situation arising in a tight game? The application will not be even handed and consistent. To believe that you have to ignore everything we know about refereeing in gaa. So to be on the safe side, what a player really has to do is to avoid the ‘borderline’ tackle that, if a lad throws himself on the ground and the ref is eager for action, will get him booked. That is not a good thing.

[quote=“Watch The Break”]I understand that gola, and to be honest you nearly always had to do something like that to get a red card. The problem remains that in a game that moves as fast as hurling an accidental collision of some sort can still be interpreted as a highly disruptive foul as these rules are understood and as we’ve seen in the league. Tony Griffin for example got one for a completely innocuous tackle and if I remember correctly he got another one for a dive by Shane O’Neil against Cork.

Now last year he’d have got a yellow and sure no problem. But this year, imagine that situation arising in a tight game? The application will not be even handed and consistent. To believe that you have to ignore everything we know about refereeing in gaa. So to be on the safe side, what a player really has to do is to avoid the ‘borderline’ tackle that, if a lad throws himself on the ground and the ref is eager for action, will get him booked. That is not a good thing.[/quote]

Yeah that would be just bad refereeing though, that can happen now with a fella already on a yellow card. You can’t vote them out just cos they think the refs will be crap at implementing them.
I think the rules deserve a chance. Obviously the players and managers are going to be against them, why wouldn’t they be it’s making life a little bit harder for them till they get used to them. Their motives are purely selfish though and don’t have the good of the games at heart at all.
It’s ridiculous that you can just drag a lad by the neck to the ground completely on purpose as he runs past you and get a virtually meaningless yellow card. Abusing the ref also has to be stamped out.
I think a better system would be the soccer system of cumulative yellows resulting in a suspension but they seem opposed to this for some reason.
I do see how they are more needed in football than hurling but abusing the ref, pulling down opponents and tripping opponents are fouls in hurling which need a greater sanction than the current yellow card.
I reckon given a season or two, which they probably won’t be, these rules could stamp out a lot of the negative tactics in gaelic games.

Not trying to catch you out and I won’t hold it against you :smiley: but honestly did you think that yellow cards were just remaining for the same offences as before just with a greater sanction?
Would be interesting to know cos I’d say that’s what a lot of informed GAA people think which is worrying for their chances of going through.

[quote=“gola”]

Not trying to catch you out and I won’t hold it against you :smiley: but honestly did you think that yellow cards were just remaining for the same offences as before just with a greater sanction?
Would be interesting to know cos I’d say that’s what a lot of informed GAA people think which is worrying for their chances of going through.[/quote]

No I’d heard a long winded explanation on the radio by your man behind them on the way back from some league match and to be honest I thought he was grasping at straws when it came to justifying their application to the hurling championship. I think the thing is I don’t share your belief that they can be applied properly. More than that though, it’s been accepted that in hurling the more serious offences do not occur that frequently. Why then introduce a system that has massive scope for controversy to deal with something that is not that big a problem? The margin for error is just too big and the consequences of a bad decision are too serious. And there will be bad decisions.

The new rules are to be scraped, they failed to get a two thirds majority backing, heard it was fairly tight, less than 10 votes in it