Further Things That Are Wrong (Part 1)

[anon26343222]

Ppl peps lmfao

[Watchyourtoes]

I owe you nothing related to an apology, I replied to your question about statues well over an hour ago and since then your complete ignorance has led to your total evisceration on a subject of which you no nothing about, id advise you to move along to the next great cause you will support and hopefully you can offer something productive on that.

[glasagusban]

You told lies about me and said that all statues are history and can’t be taken down. What about pictures of Jimmy saville?

[anon78624367]

pictures aren’t statues. now that’s a strawman

[anon78624367]

both chocco and sid are winding up big ones here.

[Watchyourtoes]

@glasagusban

You told lies about me and said that all statues are history and can’t be taken down. What about pictures of Jimmy saville?

I thought there was no link between homosexuality and paedophilia? Or are you the exception with your Saville obsession?

[anon61878697]

Can you not read? The rights and wrongs of slavery had little to do with it … yourself and @glasagusban are bringing your 21st century white middle class guilt into a discussion on the 18th/19th century.

While slavery was being carried out across the Atlantic throughout the 18th /19th century it was also being practiced in Africa for centuries… many Africans taken to the Americas as chattle were captured and sold by other Africans … there’s no one justifying slavery but at the same time it must be recognized that slavery was a part of life at this period. People were rared and educated and lived in a highly racist society that instilled in them the belief that black people were inferior to white people on every level , except maybe physicality. This notion also existed for the most part in the north of the country… Lincoln believed that whites were superior as did most of the political elite… the treatment of African Americans post emancipation shows you this - north and south.

The civil war was about economic and political power first and foremost - of course there were abolitionists - but they were a small minority. The notion that the north went to war for the rights of all men is nothing but Hollywood scutter. The idea that all confederates fought for slavery is also scutter.

It is impossible for the average person to leave modern emotion/ influences aside when judging history but claiming the civil war was solely a war based on race is 21st century ideals / interpretation of events - solely because race is such an issue today and the scars of the past still run deep.

Judging Jackson by these 21st century ideals is also not fair — he defended his home land and fought bravely and honourably. It’s noted he was against slavery but no doubt as most white people of that time, most likely believed blacks to be inferior.

Stating that far-right groups use the idea of Lee to further their own cause is no excuse — where do we draw the line of what we feel is appropriate to display in public? — Do we live in a totally sanitized world where we hide/ destroy any public displays that might lead to someone getting upset or using it to fuel their own ignorant hate? I dont think these hateful groups should dictate how society works – Nor should the extreme left shouting to get rid of such displays … The past is the past … people should be made face up to the truth of it on both sides - but that never, ever happens.

[Sidney]

@anon78624367

I don’t know the answer to that Sidney.

Maybe you should do some research on the topic before steaming in on ssomething you know nothing about, then?

@anon78624367

I’m sure looking up at a 60m high representation of a slave owner can’t be pleasant for black people though. And it’s a celebrated tourist destination

So now you’re calling for it to be blown up?!

@anon78624367

I don’t think it’s a strawman argument at all.

It definitely is

@anon78624367

Almost all symbolic monuments are of people who lead in turbulent, violent times or are religious. Almost all symbolic monuments will offend some people.

Who gets to decide which one’s come down? You.

I get to decide? Really? Thanks! Did you decide that yourself?

@anon78624367

You are an extremely righteous and arrogant person.

When people lose an argument they tend to react like you did just there, though personally I think shows extreme righteousness and arrogance that they can’t accept they’ve lost the argument

@anon78624367

I wouldn’t dare deign to tell anybody to remove any symbolic monument, I just choose not to be offended by it.

Good for you, however I do think it displays an extreme case of arrogance that you choose to dismiss the arguments of, say, black people who say that statues of confederate leaders are a current day perpetuation of a continuing racist culture in the US. I think it’s something that only somebody who has never had to suffer from any form of racial or ethnic discrimination or prejudice whatsoever in their lives could say.

@anon78624367

I’ve never passed a monument and thought, jeez, who’s that, he looks like someone who’s ideology I should follow

I doubt many people have. However public monuments are official representations of culture. Public monuments to pro-slavery leaders is a legitimisation and normalisation of of slavery. So if there are loads of confederate monuments, confederate pro-slavery ideology becomes assimiliated and normalised into official and everyday culture. Confederate pro-slavery ideology could not be more racist. The maintaining of such monuments is a foolproof way to perpetuate a racist culture in future generations.

The point is that people already know what statues represent and use them as rallying points. I mean how the fuck do you think Charlottesville happened?

[glasagusban]

You’re gone bananas altogether. Can you not have a reasonable discussion?

Maybe we can both agree that Lee was a sound lad apart from being a defender of slavery the same as Saville was a sound lad apart from being a child rapist?

[glasagusban]

That’s an evisceration.

[Watchyourtoes]

@anon61878697

Can you not read? The rights and wrongs of slavery had little to do with it … yourself and @glasagusban are bringing your 21st century white middle class guilt into a discussion on the 18th/19th century.

While slavery was being carried out across the Atlantic throughout the 18th /19th century it was also being practiced in Africa for centuries… many Africans taken to the Americas as chattle were captured and sold by other Africans … there’s no one justifying slavery but at the same time it must be recognized that slavery was a part of life at this period. People were rared and educated and lived in a highly racist society that instilled in them the belief that black people were inferior to white people on every level , except maybe physicality. This notion also existed for the most part in the north of the country… Lincoln believed that whites were superior as did most of the political elite… the treatment of African Americans post emancipation shows you this - north and south.

The civil war was about economic and political power first and foremost - of course there were abolitionists - but they were a small minority. The notion that the north went to war for the rights of all men is nothing but Hollywood scutter. The idea that all confederates fought for slavery is also scutter.

It is impossible for the average person to leave modern emotion/ influences aside when judging history but claiming the civil war was solely a war based on race is 21st century ideals / interpretation of events - solely because race is such an issue today and the scars of the past still run deep.

Judging Jackson by these 21st century ideals is also not fair — he defended his home land and fought bravely and honourably. It’s noted he was against slavery but no doubt as most white people of that time, most likely believed blacks to be inferior.

Stating that far-right groups use the idea of Lee to further their own cause is no excuse — where do we draw the line of what we feel is appropriate to display in public? — Do we live in a totally sanitized world where any hide/ destroy public displays that might lead to someone getting upset or using it to fuel their own ignorant hate? I dont think these hateful groups should dictate how society works – Nor should the extreme left shouting to get rid of such displays … The past is the past … people should be made face up to the truth of it on both sides - but that never, ever happens.

Lee, not Stonewall Jackson Chief

[glasagusban]

So you’re saying you can’t judge slavery by modern standards because it was allover the place and it was grand back in the day?

[anon61878697]

[glasagusban]

Is that the gist of it? Sure slavery was ages ago and people should get over it.

[anon61878697]

Give it another go … you’ll get there eventually.

[Sidney]

These are the same lads who claimed the Irish famine was genocide and then when they were put right on the matter, tried to backtrack by claiming that genocide was a modern word and you couldn’t judge what happened in the 19th century by modern standards, while still not accepting they’d lost the argument completely - and then eventually backtracking again to repeat their original fake history narrative.

[anon78624367]

@Sidney

Maybe you should do some research on the topic before steaming in on ssomething you know nothing about, then?

So you’ll just agree with whatever another organised group of people get offended by and want it torn down

@Sidney

I’m sure looking up at a 60m high representation of a slave owner can’t be pleasant for black people though. And it’s a celebrated tourist destination

I’m saying what’s the difference? If one monument offends, why not tear them all down? Slavery is and was a bad thing right. I’m sure we agree on that

@Sidney

I get to decide? Really? Thanks! Did you decide that yourself?

Well you are definitely picking and choosing.

@Sidney

Good for you, however I do think it displays an extreme case of arrogance that you choose to dismiss the arguments of, say, black people who say that statues of confederate leaders are a current day perpetuation of a continuing racist culture in the US. I think it’s something that only somebody who has never had to suffer from any form of racial or ethnic discrimination or prejudice whatsoever in their lives could say.

I haven’t dismissed the argument of anyone to do anything.

@Sidney

I doubt many people have. However public monuments are official representations of culture. Public monuments to pro-slavery leaders is a legitimisation and normalisation of of slavery. So if there are loads of confederate monuments, confederate pro-slavery ideology becomes assimiliated and normalised into official and everyday culture. Confederate pro-slavery ideology could not be more racist. The maintaining of such monuments is a foolproof way to perpetuate a racist culture in future generations.

The point is that people already know what statues represent and use them as rallying points. I mean how the fuck do you think Charlottesville happened?

So anywhere modern day racists and confederates meet, should be taken down and destroyed. If they decided to ironically use the statue of liberty as a rallying point, dump it in the water?

Once again you’ve demonstrated your complete misunderstanding of one persons discussion to fill a thread with your hyperbole and virtue signalling

[Watchyourtoes]

@glasagusban

So you’re saying you can’t judge slavery by modern standards because it was allover the place and it was grand back in the day?

The Colosseum today to us was a barbaric showcase of violence and death, to the ancient Romans it was like Saturday football. As @anon61878697 has said neither you or @Sidney seem to have any situational awareness of the times these events took place, tis easy to look back at something which was widely accepted then and now know that it was completely wrong. You are a great man to lash the retrospective whip.

[Sidney]

@anon61878697

Stating that far-right groups use the idea of Lee to further their own cause is no excuse — where do we draw the line of what we feel is appropriate to display in public? — Do we live in a totally sanitized world where we hide/ destroy any public displays that might lead to someone getting upset or using it to fuel their own ignorant hate? I dont think these hateful groups should dictate how society works – Nor should the extreme left shouting to get rid of such displays … The past is the past … people should be made face up to the truth of it on both sides - but that never, ever happens.

What that poorly written claptrap states is that you believe that hate-filled far right groups should dictate how society works.

But, sure “marketplace of ideas” and all that nonsense.

[Sidney]

@Watchyourtoes

@sidney Would you sooner walk into a hillbilly redneck trailer park of gun toting white extremists in Mississippi at night or a black gang neighbourhood in New Orleans?

You’ve really lost the plot now mate