GAA Managerial Merrygoround Thread

Bisto · July 17, 2019, 9:00am

Not finding a solid full back for most of that time was a big issue too…

fenwaypark · July 17, 2019, 9:10am

But if he sank it, there was no coming back for Cork and Waterford would have beaten Cork in a major knockout match and who knows where that result/confidence/belief would bring them.

balbec · July 17, 2019, 9:25am

But he didn’t and that’s the point. Like Limerick in ‘94. It took us twenty years to recover.

fenwaypark · July 17, 2019, 9:27am

Life is full of what ifs, have to grab the bull by the horns and live in the moment. It looks the wrong choice in light of Waterford winning the replay. If Cork had beaten Waterford in replay, people may have viewed his choice differently.

Malarkey · July 17, 2019, 11:06am

Fagan_ODowd:

Malarkey:

Fagan_ODowd:

Malarkey:

fenwaypark:

They lacked depth of Kilkenny and Cork at the time which was main reason they failed to lift Liam McCarthy imho.

The main reason, in practical terms, Waterford did not win the AI was because the forwards largely would not pass to each other.

There was also the fact that their best hurlers – unlike with Kilkenny – were not their best leaders.

The passing thing is interesting. Wasn’t overly conscious of it at the time, but one moment of the 98-08 team has always stayed in my mind. In the 04 semi final, we got off to a disastrous start and had given up three goals in the first twenty minutes. Somehow we stuck into the game and we still had an outside chance at half time. In the second half Paul Flynn was on fire and we came roaring back into the game. We got the margin down to 3 and Kilkenny were on the ropes. Seamus Prendergast made a great catch about 60 yards out and bore down on the Kilkenny goal. Eoin McGrath took a line outside him and was completely unmarked speeding towards the goal, screaming for a pass. The pass didn’t come. Prendergast caught the ball 3 times and from the free Kilkenny went down the field and scored. The siege was lifted and the game was over. It was like Kevin Morans notorious wide in the 17 final. A complete momentum shifter.

In saying all of that there is every likelihood that if Prendergast has passed the ball Eoin McGrath would have made a bollix of it. But we will never know.

Thanks. I remember that incident clearly as well. A real hinge, as you say.

Kilkenny should not have won that day, really – and maybe would have been better off if they’d lost, if only because experience of the final would have been massive for Waterford, one way or another. Kilkenny learned nothing except what deep fatigue feels like. Anyway, too many mistakes were made in earlier games. They didn’t really deserve to get to the AIF. Henry’s eye injury obscured – no pun intended – this truth.

SP’s oversight was almost undoubtedly clumsiness. A great bit of stuff on his day but a bit panicky in possession. Same time, too many of the Waterford forwards, for all their individual brilliance, were too selfish to pass when a pass was 110% the correct option. You cannot butcher good goal chances at the level required to win an AI. While Taggy Fogarty mightn’t have got on the Waterford team, he would graft and pass.

A member of the Waterford panel 2002 onwards said to me the forwards were playing for an All Star too much of the time. Even later, the same was true. Brian Hogan retired after 2014 and wrote a season’s worth of columns for gaa.ie. One column highlighted a Waterford forward who kept going for points in an AI semi final when a goal was required to offer any chance of recovery. BH kept schtum but I know he meant John Mullane.

Then again, JM got his five All Stars. He might well argue he took the right option. Would JM be on radio and in the Indo otherwise?

There was a better one in one of the Munster Finals later, possibly 2010. One of the forwards had backed himself to get the first goal. Half the county had got wind of this and were on it as well. Sure enough we got a free after about 3 minutes 30 yards out and yer man steps up to take it and goes for goal. He eschews a few more chances for points trying to get the first goal before finally succeeding about 15 minutes in and then he reverted to tapping over frees for points.

With rogues like that on board we were never going to win the All Ireland.

Another thing was that certain forwards could never get the measure of opposing backs. Mullane never got so much as a puck of the ball off Brian Murphy. Ditto Big Dan on JJ. So in the really big games we were always hobbled. Tommy Walsh spooked us so much that we once started Eoin McGrath on him to try and start a fight with him and get both sent off, the notion being Kilkennys loss would be much greater than ours. Tommy laughed it off and destroyed us as usual.

Yes, those comments are about as good a summation of Waterford’s ultimate travails as could be written. The “rogues” factor was unfortunate, because toleration for ‘roguery’ makes for poor control in the medium term. Poor control leads to poor results. The gambling player in question was out, scuttered, a few days before a mid 2000s championship match. He rounded on a supporter when asked what he was at. The match duly got lost.

While Brian Cody gets a lot of stick for his persona, his approach, while not charismatic, did get pretty much the best out of lads who might have slipped sideways or backwards – especially after initial successes. Some of the Kilkenny lads were no way as all out destined for great intercounty careers as people later asserted. Plenty of them liked messing and drink.

Not learning from experience is the biggest no no for intercounty talent. Take Noel Hickey, by way of contrast. Noel Hickey: bested the odd day but never bested twice by the same man.

Have always thought not making the AIF Final in 1998 and/or in 2002 weighed heavy on Waterford’s fortunes. Both years, they should have been there. While I doubt Waterford would have beaten a sore Kilkenny in 2002, they might well have beaten Offaly in 1998. If they had been there, either year, the whole penumbra changes. Parts of the county’s psyche starved of light heave into the light. Besides, just reaching either season’s AIF would have broken the tent of hype about making the AIF – and would have bequeathed 2004 onwards a far different psychological dynamic.

Yes, knockout pressure really did seem to get to Waterford. Although Ken McGrath’s dead balls were immaculate for most of the 2006 AI semi final with Cork, his freetaking splintered during the closing minutes. Waterford badly needed a Caroline Currid. Justin McCarthy could coach lads’ wrists but not their heads. Opposite way round, Brian Cody.

I remember seeing the Waterford players coming out of the tunnel, mobiles up to their ears, before the 2007 AI semi final. I said to the lads with whom I was watching the game in a pub: “They’re not ready.” And Waterford were not ready – and an inferior Limetick turned them over.

Huge pity, all of this stuff. Mutton heads are still blowing hard in the media about Cork during the 2000s. Waterford were much better to watch – and their best spells sure topped Cork’s best passages. Alas, Cork’s lulls were nothing like as injurious, on or off the field.

Julio_Geordio · July 17, 2019, 11:13am

Should have played a sweeper

anon70480284 · July 17, 2019, 1:05pm

Lookit, it’s just as well we didn’t win the 98 All Ireland as it would have a big asterisk beside it because of the Clare/Offaly fiasco that year, an asterisk beside your All Ireland isn’t worth a fuck, like the recent Clare, Galway and Limerick wins

TreatyStones · July 17, 2019, 1:28pm

Did he leave Waterford hurling in a better place than he found it?
Did his tenure see players improve as hurlers?
Did his tenure bring proper trophies?

Fagan_ODowd · July 17, 2019, 1:46pm

Malarkey:

Fagan_ODowd:

Malarkey:

Fagan_ODowd:

Malarkey:

fenwaypark:

They lacked depth of Kilkenny and Cork at the time which was main reason they failed to lift Liam McCarthy imho.

The main reason, in practical terms, Waterford did not win the AI was because the forwards largely would not pass to each other.

There was also the fact that their best hurlers – unlike with Kilkenny – were not their best leaders.

The passing thing is interesting. Wasn’t overly conscious of it at the time, but one moment of the 98-08 team has always stayed in my mind. In the 04 semi final, we got off to a disastrous start and had given up three goals in the first twenty minutes. Somehow we stuck into the game and we still had an outside chance at half time. In the second half Paul Flynn was on fire and we came roaring back into the game. We got the margin down to 3 and Kilkenny were on the ropes. Seamus Prendergast made a great catch about 60 yards out and bore down on the Kilkenny goal. Eoin McGrath took a line outside him and was completely unmarked speeding towards the goal, screaming for a pass. The pass didn’t come. Prendergast caught the ball 3 times and from the free Kilkenny went down the field and scored. The siege was lifted and the game was over. It was like Kevin Morans notorious wide in the 17 final. A complete momentum shifter.

In saying all of that there is every likelihood that if Prendergast has passed the ball Eoin McGrath would have made a bollix of it. But we will never know.

Thanks. I remember that incident clearly as well. A real hinge, as you say.

Kilkenny should not have won that day, really – and maybe would have been better off if they’d lost, if only because experience of the final would have been massive for Waterford, one way or another. Kilkenny learned nothing except what deep fatigue feels like. Anyway, too many mistakes were made in earlier games. They didn’t really deserve to get to the AIF. Henry’s eye injury obscured – no pun intended – this truth.

SP’s oversight was almost undoubtedly clumsiness. A great bit of stuff on his day but a bit panicky in possession. Same time, too many of the Waterford forwards, for all their individual brilliance, were too selfish to pass when a pass was 110% the correct option. You cannot butcher good goal chances at the level required to win an AI. While Taggy Fogarty mightn’t have got on the Waterford team, he would graft and pass.

A member of the Waterford panel 2002 onwards said to me the forwards were playing for an All Star too much of the time. Even later, the same was true. Brian Hogan retired after 2014 and wrote a season’s worth of columns for gaa.ie. One column highlighted a Waterford forward who kept going for points in an AI semi final when a goal was required to offer any chance of recovery. BH kept schtum but I know he meant John Mullane.

Then again, JM got his five All Stars. He might well argue he took the right option. Would JM be on radio and in the Indo otherwise?

There was a better one in one of the Munster Finals later, possibly 2010. One of the forwards had backed himself to get the first goal. Half the county had got wind of this and were on it as well. Sure enough we got a free after about 3 minutes 30 yards out and yer man steps up to take it and goes for goal. He eschews a few more chances for points trying to get the first goal before finally succeeding about 15 minutes in and then he reverted to tapping over frees for points.

With rogues like that on board we were never going to win the All Ireland.

Another thing was that certain forwards could never get the measure of opposing backs. Mullane never got so much as a puck of the ball off Brian Murphy. Ditto Big Dan on JJ. So in the really big games we were always hobbled. Tommy Walsh spooked us so much that we once started Eoin McGrath on him to try and start a fight with him and get both sent off, the notion being Kilkennys loss would be much greater than ours. Tommy laughed it off and destroyed us as usual.

Yes, those comments are about as good a summation of Waterford’s ultimate travails as could be written. The “rogues” factor was unfortunate, because toleration for ‘roguery’ makes for poor control in the medium term. Poor control leads to poor results. The gambling player in question was out, scuttered, a few days before a mid 2000s championship match. He rounded on a supporter when asked what he was at. The match duly got lost.

While Brian Cody gets a lot of stick for his persona, his approach, while not charismatic, did get pretty much the best out of lads who might have slipped sideways or backwards – especially after initial successes. Some of the Kilkenny lads were no way as all out destined for great intercounty careers as people later asserted. Plenty of them liked messing and drink.

Not learning from experience is the biggest no no for intercounty talent. Take Noel Hickey, by way of contrast. Noel Hickey: bested the odd day but never bested twice by the same man.

Have always thought not making the AIF Final in 1998 and/or in 2002 weighed heavy on Waterford’s fortunes. Both years, they should have been there. While I doubt Waterford would have beaten a sore Kilkenny in 2002, they might well have beaten Offaly in 1998. If they had been there, either year, the whole penumbra changes. Parts of the county’s psyche starved of light heave into the light. Besides, just reaching either season’s AIF would have broken the tent of hype about making the AIF – and would have bequeathed 2004 onwards a far different psychological dynamic.

Yes, knockout pressure really did seem to get to Waterford. Although Ken McGrath’s dead balls were immaculate for most of the 2006 AI semi final with Cork, his freetaking splintered during the closing minutes. Waterford badly needed a Caroline Currid. Justin McCarthy could coach lads’ wrists but not their heads. Opposite way round, Brian Cody.

I remember seeing the Waterford players coming out of the tunnel, mobiles up to their ears, before the 2007 AI semi final. I said to the lads with whom I was watching the game in a pub: “They’re not ready.” And Waterford were not ready – and an inferior Limetick turned them over.

Huge pity, all of this stuff. Mutton heads are still blowing hard in the media about Cork during the 2000s. Waterford were much better to watch – and their best spells sure topped Cork’s best passages. Alas, Cork’s lulls were nothing like as injurious, on or off the field.

Our gambling man took to hiding out in a pub in Bonmahon for a couple of weeks before the 2005 quarter final against Cork in which he failed to score and he picked up a cheap yellow card. This extract from the match report however indicates our dilemma, which in fairness Cody didn’t really have to deal with

“Justin McCarthy brought in Paul O’Brien and Paul Foley in an effort to improve the forward line but neither made any great impression. The truth is that Waterford’s back-up talent remains extremely limited which in one of the reasons they continue to come up short against the super-powers.”

GeoffreyBoycott · July 17, 2019, 1:49pm

Before you even got to the subs bench that Waterford team of the noughties only ever had 12-13 of the requisite standard.

anon70480284 · July 17, 2019, 1:56pm

If we had a full back and a goal keeper pre Clinton Hennessy and maybe we were carrying a forward (Eoin McGrath and the likes)…but we’ll never know now

Sidney · July 17, 2019, 2:04pm

Yes x 3

Sidney · July 17, 2019, 2:05pm

Was there a Jack Kennedy who came on against Kilkenny in 2004 and did well

I don’t recall hearing much about him after that

Big_Dan_Campbell · July 17, 2019, 2:07pm

Think he played wing back for Davy for a while

TreatyStones · July 17, 2019, 2:07pm

His final year they didnt win a game. They still havent won a game.

Austin Gleeson went from hurler of the year to a schmuck.

They didn’t win a Munster title or an All Ireland.

You made a stupid comment about Derek McGrath bringing Waterford out of the doldrums when it plainly wasnt true. You’ve doubled down because you wont admit you were wrong.

Fagan_ODowd · July 17, 2019, 2:09pm

Was an occasional sub. Started the infamous 2007 semi v Limerick and was hauled off after 25 minutes to his obvious displeasure

Big_Dan_Campbell · July 17, 2019, 2:12pm

One thing I recall from Justin’s tenure was that he would start Brick Walsh at full forward in games and he would be fairly anonymous and offer no scoring threat. He would be moved out the field as games progressed and would have big impacts. I always wondered why in the name of jesus he didn’t just start him out there.

Sidney · July 17, 2019, 2:20pm

Waterford were in the doldrums under Ryan, they were very average

That was partly due to them being in transition after the decline of the 2000s team and partly due to Michael Ryan not being a very good manager

Are you now going to launch into a tedious debate about what doldrums means?

A league title is a proper trophy - Mayo certainly celebrated theirs with gusto this year

Reaching two semi-finals and an All-Ireland final is success given where Waterford were when Derek took over

He had to build a new team

Clare didn’t win a match in 2014

Or 1996 or 2000 under Loughnane

Clare won one match of consequence against an established team in the championship under Davy post-2013 and that was against a terrible Limerick team in 2016

Davy did win the league with Clare in 2016

By your reckoning that means Davy and Loughnane were crap managers who left Clare hurling in a worse place than they found it

Which is obviously bunkum

Joe Kernan didn’t win a match in his final year in charge of Armagh - does that mean Joe Kernan was a bad manager?

It’s incredible how clueless some so called “hurling fans” here are about the game

Declan_Moffat · July 17, 2019, 2:32pm

Didn’t he start a league game and hit 10 points one of the years? He was on block release in WIT around the time and brought into the Fitzgibbon panel on the back of it. Did nothing mind for WIT. Nice fella though.

Fagan_ODowd · July 17, 2019, 5:02pm

He was a decent hurler but fell into the category of lad who didn’t set the world on fire when he started games but was a good impact sub and that didn’t satisfy him.