November International Series

[myboyblue]

@The Runt

Bandage has been calling for Devon Toner to get his chance for the past 18 months.

[caoimhaoin]

@Mac

Which part of my post are you asking about?

MOD has never performed at international level and has never shown that he is international quality.

Toner is still fairly rough around the edges and while he is a great lineout option he can still be a bit useless around rucks and he doesn’t throw his weight around as much as you’d like. This part of his game is improving though but he’s never faced opposition before of the quality he would face on Saturday if he starts. He should start IMO as we know what we’ll get from Micko which is SFA and playing Toner in micky mouse matches against Samoa isn’t going to do anything for him. If he can deliver a decent performance on Saturday at least we know we’ve got a great prospect on our hands.

I accept your reasoning.

[The_Puke]

Who will Kidney go for at tight head and inside centre???

[caoimhaoin]

Court and D’Arcy.

[myboyblue]

The IT has today named the team they believe Kidney will start on Saturday. I like Declan Kidney, I like Les Kiss, but if they go with that team we might as well give it up altogether. The AB’s are going to mince us regardless, lets try get something out of it at this point. Reddan, D’Arcy, Best, MOD, even D Wallace? Disheartening.

NZ team:
Woodcock
Elliot
Franks
Thorn
Donnelly
Kaino
McCaw
Read
Ellis
Carter
Gear
Nonu
Smith
Jane
Muliaina

Reps
Hore
Afoa
Boric
Messam
Mathewson
Donald
SB Williams

[Rocko]

@larryduff

Joke that this story about Chiliboy Ralepelle and Bjorn Basson is treated like an after thought. If this happened in a sport like cycling we’d never hear the end of it (and rightly so). These guys look as though they were involved in premeditated cheating to gain an unfair advantage. I suspect there is an awful lot more doping going on in the sport too. The controls are a million miles away from what happens in cycling anyway. Rugby is a sport where using prohibited substances can lead to a huge advantage. Time for media to wake up to that fact. I await the outcry in tomorrow’s papers but suspect I won’t get it. Suits to many people to keep this one as low profile as possible. Rugby badly needs a Paul Kimmage.

This has fairly disappeared off the sports pages alright. It would be a huge story in almost every other sport. Rugby just doesn’t want to know it seems.

[caoimhaoin]

@Rocko

This has fairly disappeared off the sports pages alright. It would be a huge story in almost every other sport. Rugby just doesn’t want to know it seems.

Have you read into it? It seems they didn’t fail for anything of real performance enhancement, and apparently what they failed for will actually be legal in January. It is a cough medicine thing, but the 2nd tests have to be seen yet before they can do anything.

SA tested the whole squad just after it then as a result, which is something.

Rugby players traditionally take their performance enhancing drugs before they become pro’s, the real testing should be taking place from ages 18-22.

[Rocko]

@caoimhaoin

Have you read into it? It seems they didn’t fail for anything of real performance enhancement, and apparently what they failed for will actually be legal in January. It is a cough medicine thing, but the 2nd tests have to be seen yet before they can do anything.

SA tested the whole squad just after it then as a result, which is something.

Rugby players traditionally take their performance enhancing drugs before they become pro’s, the real testing should be taking place from ages 18-22.

The issue about not being performance enhancing is a stock defence that is often irrelevant.

Contador tested positive for whatever it was in Le Tour this year and was able to call immediately on any number of doctors and pharmacists who could rightly claim that it was a trace amount in his body and that the quantity was so small it could never be even remotely performance enhancing. That masks two things:

1. it’s not a naturally occurring substance so how did it get in there? (Contaminated meat is a shite defence)
2. the level is irrelevant. There are plenty of tests for masking agents which are not performance enhancing.

I have a very very hard time believing that South African rugby officials allowed the team to take nutritional supplements with a banned substance in it. This is professional sport we’re talking about. It’s unthinkable to believe that professional nutritionists would not be familiar with the list of banned substances. Even if that is the case why did they only fail a test now? What sort of out of competition testing are the IRB enforcing?

I’ve done plenty of reading on the drug in question - it’s not unique to rugby. It’s patented by the good people of BALCO at the moment. It is not unbanned from next year. It is being reclassified which allows athletes the chance to prove that it was taken inadvertently and therefore has reduced penalties. But it’s still a banned substance.

Agreed on the testing younger players thing - but rugby has an awful lot of catching up to do and the swift acceptance of the stock defence in this case is far from convincing.

[caoimhaoin]

@Rocko

The issue about not being performance enhancing is a stock defence that is often irrelevant.

Contador tested positive for whatever it was in Le Tour this year and was able to call immediately on any number of doctors and pharmacists who could rightly claim that it was a trace amount in his body and that the quantity was so small it could never be even remotely performance enhancing. That masks two things:

1. it’s not a naturally occurring substance so how did it get in there? (Contaminated meat is a shite defence)
2. the level is irrelevant. There are plenty of tests for masking agents which are not performance enhancing.

I have a very very hard time believing that South African rugby officials allowed the team to take nutritional supplements with a banned substance in it. This is professional sport we’re talking about. It’s unthinkable to believe that professional nutritionists would not be familiar with the list of banned substances. Even if that is the case why did they only fail a test now? What sort of out of competition testing are the IRB enforcing?

I’ve done plenty of reading on the drug in question - it’s not unique to rugby. It’s patented by the good people of BALCO at the moment. It is not unbanned from next year. It is being reclassified which allows athletes the chance to prove that it was taken inadvertently and therefore has reduced penalties. But it’s still a banned substance.

Agreed on the testing younger players thing - but rugby has an awful lot of catching up to do and the swift acceptance of the stock defence in this case is far from convincing.

When i said read up, i ment on this particular case. And i am certainly not defending anything, just pointing out the main reason its not got massive publicity yet is it seems, to me anyway, they haven’t got all the tests or the full story.

I’m not going to argue about weather its banned or what in january, i was basing it on what i heard Matt Williams say the other day about it. In fairness he seems well up on this. He also explained that it keeps changing so often (as in every year) that its quite confusing and the goal posts change alot.

Ultimately the the attitude is wrong in rugby… Taking cocaine gets you a longer ban than taking performance enhancing drugs going on the bans over the past 10 years. Not condoning the cocaine, but that doesn’t add up to me.

[myboyblue]

Brad Thorn out.

Just need another 10 or so to go the same way and we might have a chance.

[Rocko]

@caoimhaoin

When i said read up, i ment on this particular case. And i am certainly not defending anything, just pointing out the main reason its not got massive publicity yet is it seems, to me anyway, they haven’t got all the tests or the full story.

I’m not going to argue about weather its banned or what in january, i was basing it on what i heard Matt Williams say the other day about it. In fairness he seems well up on this. He also explained that it keeps changing so often (as in every year) that its quite confusing and the goal posts change alot.

Ultimately the the attitude is wrong in rugby… Taking cocaine gets you a longer ban than taking performance enhancing drugs going on the bans over the past 10 years. Not condoning the cocaine, but that doesn’t add up to me.

Yeah I have read up on the case.

South Africa have managed it quite well - deflect the blame from the two lads by putting the whole squad’s reputation on the line and sending off their drinks to be tested. Ergo the media report that there may have been something in their drinks and everyone glosses over the fact that while this occurs in some nutritional food supplements, it doesn’t occur in any supplements that aren’t banned by WADA so why exactly are South African rugby players taking banned food supplements?

Williams is indeed well versed on the matter and he provides a decent insight into the professional side of things. The facts are that the rules change occasionally but everyone seems so certain that this will be a lesser offence in January so why could anyone have been uncertain about its status now?

I think the whole thing stinks to be honest. I don’t buy the defence at all and I think the testing of the isotonic drinks is an excellent piece of distraction and media management by South Africa. It’s not acceptable to have athletes taking performance enhancing stimulants that are on the WADA banned list and saying they got them from any sort of supplement is no defence.

[myboyblue]

Kearney
Bowe
BOD
D’Arcy
Luke
Sexton
Reddan :rolleyes:
Heaslip
Wallace
Ferris
MOD :lol:
DOC
Court
Best :rolleyes:
Healy

REPS
Cronin
Bull
Toner
Leamy
Stringer
ROG
Earls

[Mac]

@myboyblue

Kearney
Bowe
BOD
D’Arcy
Luke
Sexton
Reddan :rolleyes:
Heaslip
Wallace
Ferris
MOD :lol:
DOC
Court
Best :rolleyes:
Healy

REPS
Cronin
Bull
Toner
Leamy
Stringer
ROG
Earls

FFS, no O’Brien and Micko still there.

KIDNEY OUT

[The_Puke]

@Mac

FFS, no O’Brien and Micko still there.

KIDNEY OUT

In fairness I am a big fan of O’Brien but he showed very little last week to earn a place this week…Even though lads were calling for Toner i think he is probably right not the start him as he isn’t at that level yet, shame that O’Connell and Cullen are injured and Ryan suspended…Reddan shouldn’t be on the bench let alone the team, Best was always going to start at hooker

[Rocko]

Not surprising but disappointing nonetheless. I wouldn’t argue the Best v Cronin case too vigorously and as Puke says O’Brien didn’t really put his hand up last weekend. I just don’t understand the selection of Reddan. He wouldn’t be anywhere near the team if he didn’t have a reputation. He was awful against South Africa and the truth is that was no surprise. It’s an awful long time since he put in a performance of any real note.

D’Arcy is very lucky to escape the chop too. No point having a back 3 and BO’D outside him if he decides to take everything on himself with his stutter step thing. It’s very late to expect him to learn how to be part of a cohesive backline and while his individual ability used to mask those deficiencies in the past those days are gone.

[caoimhaoin]

Pretty disappointing, ROG deserves the start as well. Whatever lads say about MOD, he is still ahead in the pecking order of Toner. Reddan is a joke. Agreed on SOB though, i have high hopes for him too, but he did struggle against lesser opposition last week.

Now if i was was Bando or mbb i’d be pulling up the fact that when asked about 12 & tight head the other day i nailed it with Court and D’Arcy. But mbb will probably need proof that i said it, so mbb, its up this page. Shouldn’t be too hard to find that.

[cluaindiuic]

I fully expect us to get our arses handed to us.

[caoimhaoin]

@cluaindiuic

I fully expect us to get our arses handed to us.

We won’t win or anything, but i think they might beat the spread of 14.

[cluaindiuic]

I don’t. That’s a pretty good NZ team selected.

I think they’ll take a decent lead on us and then take it easy on us in the second half so I’m gonna have a look to see what I can get on Betfair and see if I can lay after they rest post wiping the floor with us.

[The_Puke]

@caoimhaoin

Pretty disappointing, ROG deserves the start as well. Whatever lads say about MOD, he is still ahead in the pecking order of Toner. Reddan is a joke. Agreed on SOB though, i have high hopes for him too, but he did struggle against lesser opposition last week.

Now if i was was Bando or mbb i’d be pulling up the fact that when asked about 12 & tight head the other day i nailed it with Court and D’Arcy. But mbb will probably need proof that i said it, so mbb, its up this page. Shouldn’t be too hard to find that.

Wouldn’t dispute that but these are the games Sexton needs before the next WC, in saying that with a pack that is going to be on the backfoot Stringer would have been a far better option at 9…