So would I, or at least some of them. Thatâs not the way it works though unfortunately - open the purse strings for one and all the others come knocking. Thatâs why theyâve done cross public-sector deals. Itâs a very difficult situation for all. @Juhniallio knows this but would prefer to trade in emotion.
Where would you like me to start? Iâd say their management of health has been pisspoor. Harris is more interested in delivering abortion than fixing any of the usual issues. Overruns of a billion euro or more on a hospital you fast tracked into the worst possible site is incompetent. Telling the country the cervical scare victims wouldnât have to spend time in courts while actually obstructing the process is Machiavellian and incompetent(because they were found out). Stoking the fire of the nursesâ ire by having the glorious 5k leader tell them that the annual shitstorm in hospitals is caused by lazy doctors and nurses taking too much holidays is incompetent. Managing to let all the above happen at the same time is gloriously incompetent. Even Mehawl would have managed to kick the nurses down the line with a special report/investigation into their claim. But fuck it. The rugby is on. Leo will probably try and fix it by tweeting a picture of himself and Joe Schmidt and all will be well with the fg crew.
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Health has been mismanaged in this country under multiple governments. The hospitals are a joke, everything is set up to get bastard consultants more money.
Nurses and non consultant doctors are on the frontline, dealing with overcrowding, palliative care, genuinely putting themselves in harms way.
Now you have Coveney coming out and saying they are looking at legal sanctions they can take against the nurses going on strike.
Fine Gael are the enemy of the small man. Rotten cunts. I hope this finishes them off
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Maybe start with the issue at hand rather than an easy rant against the health system.
Was he on strike this week ?
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You asked for incompetence. A Taoiseach happy to blame medical staff for hospital delays just before pay talks is incompetent. And foolhardy. And arrogant. *
*(I was in hospital Christmas day-there were fuck all staff).
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Itâs a hard one for the government â but itâs how FG go about their business that causes most friction⌠theyâd kick a sleeping dog for the sake of it.
Thatâs a poor answer. I had a look and couldnât find much beyond â2/3 of student nurses think about moving abroadâ. So what? Plenty of college people do and as I said, it is a far easier thing to do for nurses than other professional type jobs due to transferability of skills.
If you think about it- teachers are far less likely to move abroad as they come through an Irish system. Plenty do, but you are restricted depending on what youâve done (i.e. primary teachers can teach abroad, but it isnât directly transferable). If you look at accountants and lawyers, both have to wait around a few more years than nurses to qualify and then accountants are far more likely to go abroad because they can transfer the skill easier.
Nursing is therefore something that is easily transferable.
I donât think true rates exist on what Iâve asked because nursing is only a degree course in Ireland and lots of western countries for 20 years. But Iâm interested to see them. I personally think the âall our nurses flee to go to Australia, what a disgrace!â is overplayed. Even if you raise their pay by 10%, are you actually going to stop a 22 year old going abroad and being able to earn decent money in a professional job? Most 22 year olds who go abroad can only get intern or bar work type jobs, nurses as I said, are ready to go. Nurses will continue to go abroad but most will come back, thatâs just life.
In terms of pay, again, I am open to actual hard numbers on this. The pay scales do not reflect what they are actually get paid. Night Duty is part and parcel of the job and they can earn a premium for that, for example. As is agency work.
As for the âcondescensionâ? Where is that? I asked for a bit more meat from peopleâs answers than just âpay them what they deserve!â and âthey all go abroadâ. I doubt thereâs many members of this board who donât have close family members as nurses and Iâm not exception.
Working conditions wise, from what Iâve seen in hospitals from staying for hours at a time, they are manic. I donât agree with Ambrose saying they have it easy, I donât think putting suppositories in people is ever fun, but he is definitely right in that the care workers do some of the most difficult tasks. Most nurses do their rounds with meds and monitoring and go on their way to talk through patient care. The staffing never looks high enough, but Iâm convinced there are too many office staff and nurses who âgo upstairsâ and the OECD stats bear that out. That would be the opinion of my aunt who is a nurse as well.
Get off your high horse there on this. Emotive nonsense.
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I never said they have it easy. The conditions in hospitals need to be improved but paying them more wonât make a blind bit of difference to services.
Sorry I misconstrued âfuck all to complain aboutâ. In fairness, itâs a job where I think youâre always going to be stressed on the front line.
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Are you suggesting that we factor in a nurse doing another completely different job into the calculation of their pay?
I think we could probably pay nurses a bit more, new entrants were screwed by the old guard in the last pay deal, and we could move to amend that. For example Nurses no longer get paid for placement. Fair enough itâs part of their degree, but everyone else getâs paid for coop placements these days so why not nurses.
Serious reforms are also necessary though. I agree with what others have said about nurses hiding in offices all day. But the flip side is there is shit loads of unnessecary paperwork they have to go through. Even aside from that though, itâs scarcely believable in this day and age that Nurses and everyone in the hospital is still going around filling in records with a pen and paper and filing the old fashioned way.
We could also give senior Nurses more power to discharge people etc. Iâve experienced it a few times in the last few years where the patient is good to go home and youâve to wait for the doctor to come around and okay it, even though theyâve already okayâd it in advance (as in if everythingâs ok tomorrow youâll be able to go home). A few times the doctor never had time to come around so a bed was taken up for an additional night, while people were in the halls on trolleys. The whole system is just awful really, and the worse thing is itâs not for a lack of money.
The Governments handling of this has been absolutely atrocious. Itâs hilarious to watch. Leoâs complete arrogance is unbelievable. Itâs incredible how out of touch with the public he is on this. If this drags on and Brexit getâs sorted Martin should go straight for an election in April.
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Thatâs a weird answer. You donât like the topic so letâs change it to a conversation about stats that you say you canât find but are happy to speculate on? Bizarre. Also strange that you think any opposing view of yours is 'emotive. Or did you just copy @tallback?
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I know Brexit and the Childrenâs Hospital have been the main focus lately but it was so stupid not to get out in front of this and give some kind of sop until the next pay hike kicks in. They are blessed with the opposition being so poor but they canât keep giving open goals to FF.
Bourgeois Tim has no time for the working classes. Guffawing around tables with the rugby crowd at the plebs having to do a days work, slapping knees and drinking G&T, dock their wages I say. Haw haw haw. âOh, Tim, youâre such a ticketâ. âThanks Moriartyâ
That is a perfect visual representation of the imaginary conversation above. Kudos
Agree.
So much of this comes back to the HSE for me. Such a joke of an organisation and with a remit which requires the very best of management practices. Once that organisation is as it is then there is always going to be trouble. No one seems to want to rock the boat and bring in serious reform though despite money hemorrhaging out of the organisation. I almost think that politicians are afraid to hit the consultants head on for fear of them walking out which could potentially be a disaster.
I am not sure if I fully support the nurses in this but as you say they could probably be paid more. What annoys me though is idiots with unquestioned support for them just because they are nurses.
The only argument of note youâve made is that nurses are leaving - the rest is just noise. I think there is some merit to the argument about retaining and attracting talent - the same as any job/industry. As @Tim_Riggins outlined there are a variety of reasons why young people emigrate from any job but that aside, it is a concern. I would argue in that case though that targeted increases may be worthwhile - not something for every nurse in the country.
Either way though - it doesnât get away from the central reality of it. Itâll cost huge sums of money to give them what they want due to the knock-on claims from all the other unions. Whereâs that money going to come from? The âLabour party when theyâre in oppositionâ money tree?
The unions are quite happy to tie themselves together when things are going up - hereâs the downside for them - it makes it difficult for sectoral deals. Maybe the nurses unions should negotiate with their pals in Liberty Hall whereby all the other beards agree that if the Nurses get a pay raise âbecause they deserve itâ then the others will hold back?