NZ, UK, US, Sweden, Poland & Cheese eating surrender Monkeys approaches to Covid-19

This is worth reading, key points bolded:

In a recent and controversial First Opinion, epidemiologist and statistician John Ioannidis argues that we lack good data on many aspects of the Covid-19 epidemic, and seems to suggest that we should not take drastic actions to curtail the spread of the virus until the data are more certain.

He is absolutely right on the first point. The U.S. has done fewer tests per capita so far than almost any rich country in the world. And many critical details of the epidemiology — including the absolute number of cases, the role of children in transmission, the role of presymptomatic transmission, and the risk of dying from infection with SARS-CoV-2 — remain uncertain.

On the second point, I would say that his article did what contrarian writing should do: started a discussion. We spoke by phone on Tuesday, not long after his article appeared, and found that we had more in common than it appeared when I first read it.

So without trying to characterize Ioannidis’ view, I will state a strongly held view of my own: We know enough to act; indeed, there is an imperative to act strongly and swiftly. It is true that we can’t be sure either how many infections there have been in any population or the risk of needing intensive care or the case fatality rate. These uncertainties are two sides of the same coin. Nonetheless, two things are clear.

First, the number of severe cases — the product of these two unknowns — becomes fearsome in country after country if the infection is allowed to spread. In Italy, coffins of Covid-19 victims are accumulating in churches that have stopped holding funerals. In Wuhan, at the peak of the epidemic there, critical cases were so numerous that, if scaled up to the size of the U.S. population, they would have filled every intensive care bed in this country.

That is what happens when a community waits until crisis hits to try to slow transmission. Intensive care demand lags new infections by about three weeks because it takes that long for a newly infected person to get critically ill. So acting before the crisis hits — as was done in some Chinese cities outside Wuhan, and in some of the small towns in Northern Italy — is essential to prevent a health system overload.

Second, if we don’t apply control measures, the number of cases will keep going up exponentially beyond the already fearsome numbers we have seen. Scientists have estimated that the basic reproductive number of this virus is around 2. That means without control, case numbers will double, then quadruple, then be eight times as big, and so on, doubling with each “generation” of cases.

To stop an epidemic like that permanently, nearly half the population must be immune. While the exact number of people infected in each population is unknown, current estimates are that for every symptomatic case there is about one asymptomatic or very mild case.

In populations with good ascertainment of symptomatic cases, the number of infections is perhaps double what is observed (in the U.S., where testing is limited, true cases are a much higher multiple of reported cases). In well-tested countries, we can be nearly certain that no population has reached anywhere near half of its people infected. That means that when each country lets up on control measures, transmission will increase and the number of cases will grow again.

It is crucial to emphasize that a pandemic like this does not dissipate on its own, as Ioannidis suggested as a possibility. Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) in 2003 was hammered into submission by intense public health measures in many places, which were effective because transmission was mainly from very sick people. Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS), which emerged in 2012, is a weakly transmissible infection that causes outbreaks in hospitals, but is otherwise much less contagious than Covid-19.

There are two options for Covid-19 at the moment: long-term social distancing or overwhelmed health care systems. That is the depressing conclusion many epidemiologists have been emphasizing for weeks, and which was detailed in an analysis released this week by the Imperial College London.

Ioannidis is right that the prospect of intense social distancing for months or years is one that can hardly be imagined, let alone enacted. The alternative of letting the infection spread uncontrolled is equally unimaginable. We certainly need more data. Even more than that, we need a breakthrough to make effective treatments, vaccines, or other preventive measures available at scale.

Waiting and hoping for a miracle as health systems are overrun by Covid-19 is not an option. For the short term there is no choice but to use the time we are buying with social distancing to mobilize a massive political, economic, and societal effort to find new ways to cope with this virus.

Marc Lipsitch, D.Phil., is professor of epidemiology at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and director of Harvard’s Center for Communicable Disease Dynamics.

Agree with all this, bar Boris resigning. He’ll go at metaphorical gunpoint only. An adult may take over, but I highly highly doubt it as most have left the room.

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I’ve been saying this for a while but the atmosphere in the UK is going to change very soon.

Look at Italy and how we’re looking on aghast at all the deaths - and they have actually taken things a lot more seriously than other countries.

Johnson will not be able to keep the pictures of bodies leaving hospitals secret, and when that starts, and it’s a certainty, the mood will change drastically.

Jeremy Hunt’s movements over the last ten days or so have been very interesting. He has been vocal in firmly distancing himself from the UK Government’s approach. As well as being correct in public heath terms, he smells blood politically and is positioning himself to be the inevitable successor when Johnson becomes discredited.

He is the worst cunt iof all.* Primarily responsible for running down the NHS. A weasel more weaselish even than the rest. A slimy political opportunist, charlatan and fraud.

*Actually he isn’t as the bar is set sooooo high

He’s a Tory so is automatically a massive cunt but exists in reality-based world.

At least if Hunt was in charge you’d have the few remaining sane people in the party brought into cabinet, Smith, Tugendhat, Ellwood etc., basically all the Remainers, and the looney faction that is currently running the asylum would be run out of the place.

There is that.
I hope Cummings falls hard, but I suspect he will land shelob-like on his legs

The claims that “the science has changed” or theyve gotten new bad information from Italy in the past 7 days just aren’t credible. Nothing’s changed. If the science was bad he should have sacked his science advisors. The market rejected Boris’s approach and the market is controlling anything.

The video of the gym in Wolverhampton was good. Possibly all those people’s parents will get sick but I think there’s a chance that the virus hasn’t infiltrated the north too badly yet. A kip like Wolverhampton isn’t nearly as metropolitan as Monaghan or Leitrim or Laois and those places have no cases.

London is going to get absolutely wiped out, it will be the biggest humanitarian crises in europe for a long time.

Anybody who doesn’t think Fox News is an agent of fascism is part of the problem.

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The UKs initial responce was all about ‘going with the science’ but had Dominic Cummings written all over it, lets crunch the data here and the data tells us its ok to ethnicy clense an expensive, non contributing subset from our population. Boris calculated that it would be mostly be the poorer sectors of society so, opportunist that he is, was happy to bumble his way along with it. Now they are slowly but surely changing their tune and are looking extremely foolish and exposed saying ‘The science was wrong’ I wonder was there some words had.

In normal circumstanced you would expect a backlash but the UK public have been so conditioned how to think by the right wing media that they will blithly shoegaze their way through this until its already too late.

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Agreed, they will run out of graphs for the UK soon enough. I fell sorry for them over there but we have it on our own doorstep with the 6 counties. The lack of urgency and devil may care attitude to the whole thing by UK leaders will have permeated the national psyche over there which will mean that even if they impose the most stringent of measures there will be a large cohort of resistance and people who will not abide.

They have been.

When the bodies start piling up, things will change.

The right likes to ridicule the left by saying “they’re obsessed with the revolution”.

When all along, a right-wing revolution of kleptocracy, rejection of science, rejection of truth, a revolution of sheer nihilism has been going on in plain sight.

Keep calm and carry on.

this mirrors their handling of the 1918 flu pandemic. No uniform policy from state to state and city to city

Yes as I said last night that lack of uniformity is sort of like the problem we have with the Brits except much worse.

Within the US there are plenty who are taking this seriously - the sort of people you’d expect, ie. people who take science seriously, ie. scientists and public health experts, liberal media outlets and in politics overwhelmingly Democrats, but they’ve been completely undermined by the anti-science, North Korean style cult that is the Republican party.

The relentless fostering of stupidity has huge real world cconsequences.

The new line Trump is taking is to make the virus a racist lightning rod by blaming China and Chinese people for it, which is utterly disgraceful, not least given that the so called Spanish Flu came from the US.

Spring Break!!

Read this article.

Bullet point: suppression is the only answer, lockdown is coming.

We’re like the men on Elephant Island waiting for Shackleton (a vaccine) to come and rescue us. The alternative is throwing millions overboard.

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Honestly, the UK public won’t be overrun. A good few thousand elderly will die prematurely, and the NHS will be a bombscare, but as long as they can keep panic off the streets (largely by controlling shopping), after a few weeks it’ll be shrug and aren’t we Brits great with our spirit of the blitz.

The Blitz spirit is a myth, certainly as it pertains to today. I actually think there are few countries put there that are less cohesive and less hysterical than the Brits. I think the Brits will turn on their government perhaps worse than anybody if they are seen to have fucked up - and they have fucked up.

The only countries who took this seriously early enough were Asian countries who had endured SARS in 2003, like Singapore, South Korea, and Japan. No western country reacted quickly to the information that was known in late January about the disease. The fact that China locked down Wuhan in late January was a massive red flag that should have prompted all western governments to stop all travel from China as it was known the virus has spread to all regions of China by then (read @labane1917’s posts on page one of this thread).

It’s very easy to be wise in hindsight. What should have been done at the end of January was a complete ban on travel from China, instead we had tens of thousands travel all over the world for Chinese New Year. The usual suspects on here who hate Trump first and think later cannot accept that banning travel from China was the correct decision, and had it been done by Italy in late January, their crisis would have been at least slowed down and lives saved. The fact the usual suspects cannot accept this fact disallows them from any future comment as they simply cannot accept the facts and are blinded by hate and ideology.

It is inaction that has caused this pandemic, initial inaction and outright lies from China who knew about this outbreak in mid December, and told the world about it in late January. It was too late by then, it has already spread and was spreading out of control by early February. Inaction by western governments who didn’t recognize how quickly it was spreading (the data was there from China in early February), and put at least travel restrictions in place quickly.

Posters who were saying “meh” to this outbreak in early February are now asking why governments didn’t take draconian action in early February. What changed their minds? Italy. There is no reason to think this virus chose Italy first in Europe, it has been spreading like wildfire since January. What has jolted the UK into action is the experience in Italy, what should have jolted all governments into action was the experience in Wuhan.

You’ve been preaching inaction all along.

The naked politicisation and North Korean style propaganda dripping off all of your posts here becasue your feelings are hurt that anybody would criticise your child emperor has been bizarre to watch for anybody inhabiting a reality-based world.

That’s been your first, your last, your only narrative throught out this whole crisis, that “Trump has been doing a great job”. :laughing:

Well, that and a racist narrative against Chinese people.

Like a pound shop Fox News demagogue.

Get lost.