Where did I blame him for the draw you condescending arsehole? Rocko said he did well, you agreed. He didn’t do well, he didn’t even hold his own in the air, the one job should excel at- I’ve already stated that the lad can’t be blamed, he is no where near good enough for this level, so you’d have to look at management for playing him and leaving him on the park that long.
Not based on the attempts of most players to find him last night.
He wasn’t the problem, it was the fact that he was picked, firstly, and not taken off, secondly, that was the problem.
Again, and slower this time, I agreed that he wasn’t the problem. He wasn’t. We are in agreement with regards the second part of your post.
EDIT: In fairness, I should have clarified my original post a little better perhaps.
So you agree that he was utter shite last night?
Trap has to go. Salmon was a bad choice. He played poorly against Poland and I thought he put in just about passable performance last night.His work rate was good but he doesn’t possess the nous or the technical ability to play international football. He is the kind of lad that could be there until tomorrow morning and he still wouldn’t find the back of the net.
The substitution of Green for Long wouldn’t have been too bad if they had played a 5 man midfield with Green and Whelan sitting in front of back 4 and James McCarthy playing just ahead of them.Instead we reverted to a 4-4-2 when we were getting clearly overrun in midfield.Lastly I don’t know why they subsituted Long.If there was 1 player who would have got on the ball and kill the time left it was him or even win a free kick.
If we wanted to get control of possession for more than 5 seconds and relieve the onslought maybe we should have brought on Wes Houlahan but we’ll never know.
Nope, if we were to set the scale of utter shite as the worst performer then Pogatetz held the remaining 26 players involved last night aloft.
Chances of qualifying for this world cup were always going to be slim enough considering the group we got and it is extremely unlikely now. No point getting rid of Trap before the end of this campaign-hopefully he won’t alienate any more players between now and then. He did very well to get a very limited squad of players to a finals but his negativity, poor man management and lack of belief in the players is not what a young and inexperienced squad needs.
There is the bones of a decent first 11 there for the next Euro campaign. McLean was fairly dangerous at times last night and if he gets his head up can be a decent player, McCarthy, Andrews and possibly Brady with Hoolahan playing off Long could be a decent top half of the time given more time playing together. Walters, Gibson, McGeady, Whelan, possibly still Keane and hopefully Doyle if he improves all pushing these lads for their places hopefully will keep their performance level up.
Defence could be the problem. I have no worries about Coleman but all of the other 3 last night are prone to error with Wilson been the least culpable. I think Ciaran Clark can develop into a very decent player but he needs to cut out the amount of glaring errors he is making. Forde has done well in the last 2 games but not sure if he is the long term solution and time is not on his side.
The FAI need to start thinking about a new manager for the next campaign now and it will have to be somebody with a track record of getting the best out of young and committed but limited players-only one man for the job for me and that is Brian McDermott. The FAI should try to tap him up now but I fear he will be signed up by another club before this campaign is over.
[quote=“myboyblue, post: 752720, member: 180”]Agreed. Sammon ran his legs to a stump. He was clearly gone with 20 minutes to go however and deserved to be subbed. Walters was much in the same, didnt contribute much but put in a huge shift. To think with 10 minutes or so to go we had two players with little more to give physically still on the field and a substitution still to make is baffling and infuriating. Say what you like about Trap, and many will and have here, but he’s an experienced manager and to not get one more pair of fresh legs on that field is unbelievable. Also to bring Green on where he did and to push Walters up front which has already been outlined, is another serious black mark.
Saying that, Trap didnt make the players make the mistakes they did, Clark, the abysmal free kick routine at the end, etc. Its not always Traps fault as many people want to make it out as, but on occasions he does make mistakes as he did in last nights endgame. The outcome may not have changed for all we’d know, but that doesn’t mean you do nothing.[/quote]
I’d have taken him off alright, but as someone else said above even with the change we made it might have been ok if we pushed McCarthy slightly forward and kept Walters where he was so Green could go into the middle. Didn’t see much logic in bringing Green on to play where he did - not that he did anything wrong.
I’m not surprised at the criticism of Sammon because it suits people to be proven right and he’s not exactly a popular player. But he was effective in the air, he held the ball up well for the first goal, he had a couple of nice flicks to give Long half chances and he was genearlly a good outlet for us. They also wanted to play the ball out from the back and he prevented them from doing that with help from Long. I don’t really like his style but the general idea that he was poor last night is just a pre-ordained opinion as far as I’m concerned.
That said I thought he’d run hard and would have been an obvious candidate to be replaced with 10 minutes to go. However two things that may have influenced the decision were:
- He was defending set pieces, Long wasn’t. They had brought on Janko and were lofting balls forward so he may have been retained as an extra option defending corners etc.
- Long had just given away that stupid foul where he pushed their lad from behind after chasing him down. He was booked for that (which may or may not have been a factor in the decision) but it was also the type of stupid foul that makes managers think you can’t be trusted to keep defensive discipline.
[quote=“Rocko, post: 752754, member: 1”]I’d have taken him off alright, but as someone else said above even with the change we made it might have been ok if we pushed McCarthy slightly forward and kept Walters where he was so Green could go into the middle. Didn’t see much logic in bringing Green on to play where he did - not that he did anything wrong.
I’m not surprised at the criticism of Sammon because it suits people to be proven right and he’s not exactly a popular player. But he was effective in the air, he held the ball up well for the first goal, he had a couple of nice flicks to give Long half chances and he was genearlly a good outlet for us. They also wanted to play the ball out from the back and he prevented them from doing that with help from Long. I don’t really like his style but the general idea that he was poor last night is just a pre-ordained opinion as far as I’m concerned.
That said I thought he’d run hard and would have been an obvious candidate to be replaced with 10 minutes to go. However two things that may have influenced the decision were:
- He was defending set pieces, Long wasn’t. They had brought on Janko and were lofting balls forward so he may have been retained as an extra option defending corners etc.
- Long had just given away that stupid foul where he pushed their lad from behind after chasing him down. He was booked for that (which may or may not have been a factor in the decision) but it was also the type of stupid foul that makes managers think you can’t be trusted to keep defensive discipline.[/quote]
How many astro titles has this man won as manager? It’s easy to see why with a footballing brain that is clearly superior to the average punter.
[quote=“Rocko, post: 752754, member: 1”]I’d have taken him off alright, but as someone else said above even with the change we made it might have been ok if we pushed McCarthy slightly forward and kept Walters where he was so Green could go into the middle. Didn’t see much logic in bringing Green on to play where he did - not that he did anything wrong.
I’m not surprised at the criticism of Sammon because it suits people to be proven right and he’s not exactly a popular player. But he was effective in the air, he held the ball up well for the first goal, he had a couple of nice flicks to give Long half chances and he was genearlly a good outlet for us. They also wanted to play the ball out from the back and he prevented them from doing that with help from Long. I don’t really like his style but the general idea that he was poor last night is just a pre-ordained opinion as far as I’m concerned.
That said I thought he’d run hard and would have been an obvious candidate to be replaced with 10 minutes to go. However two things that may have influenced the decision were:
- He was defending set pieces, Long wasn’t. They had brought on Janko and were lofting balls forward so he may have been retained as an extra option defending corners etc.
- Long had just given away that stupid foul where he pushed their lad from behind after chasing him down. He was booked for that (which may or may not have been a factor in the decision) but it was also the type of stupid foul that makes managers think you can’t be trusted to keep defensive discipline.[/quote]
So a few flicks and running around like a bell end qualifies as a good game?
You can try and justify him all you want in order to blow your own trumpet, but the guy is beyond hopeless.
[FONT=Segoe UI]Very frustrating night last night. We played brilliantly for 30 mins of the first half, fullbacks were overlapping, we were retaining the ball (well kind of), McCarthy was getting on it and spraying it around, pressing them high. I was delighted at half time, both with the way they were playing and with the recovery after that jennet Clarke gifted them one. It was the best I’d seen them play in 3 years plus, I really thought we’d turned a corner and Trap was loosening the reins a bit. [/FONT]
[FONT=Segoe UI] [/FONT]
[FONT=Segoe UI]Then the second half happened. Unbelievably frustrating, they just sat back and let the Austrians at them. The real miracle was that Austria didn’t win it. As stupid and all an idea that it was to sit back and defend a one goal lead for the entire second half, he would have gotten away with it had he brought on fresh legs earlier. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Segoe UI]Paul Green was probably the right substitution to make at the time given we’d completely abandoned all pretence of attacking at that stage, but what the fuck was he putting him on the wing for? He got the ball on the right wing with about 3 minutes to go, the space opened up in front of him, but he checked back and passed it inside. Had that been a winger he could have gone for the endline and at the least ran out valuable seconds in their half. He also left Coleman completely exposed. This isn’t a criticism of Green by the way, he should never have been put there in the first place and he was constantly drifting into the middle where he was more comfortable. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Segoe UI]A brief selection of better Substitutions that could have been made:[/FONT]
[FONT=Segoe UI]All of the following were much more tired than Long; Sammon, McCarthy, Whelan. [/FONT]
[FONT=Segoe UI]Bringing Green on sticking him in the middle and leaving Walters on the wing.[/FONT]
[FONT=Segoe UI]Taking Sammon off and leaving long on who was 1. much more dangerous 2. an infinitely better footballer 3. had plenty of gas left in the tank[/FONT]
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[FONT=Segoe UI]He should also have made another sub, bringing Doyle on perhaps to chase the defenders. We badly needed fresh legs in the last 5-10 mins.[/FONT]
[FONT=Segoe UI] [/FONT]
[FONT=Segoe UI]Forde was solid in goals but his distribution was very very poor. In the first half when we were keeping the ball well, anytime it was played back to him he just hoofed it forward. Initially the full backs were showing looking for it, but even before the first half was over they had given it up. He kicked a few over the line aswell.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Segoe UI]O’Shea as well was just hoofing it whenever he got it, fucking stealing a living he is. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Segoe UI]The biggest oxygen thief of them all is Clarke though, I don’t know how he is on the books of any EPL club.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Segoe UI]McClean badly needs some coaching, he has a bizarre habit of cutting inside which makes it look like he is beating his man when really his man is only delighted to send him into the traffic. He only took his man on the outside once in the entire game. He failed to beat the first man when crossing a few times aswell.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Segoe UI]Sammon had fought hard before he ran out of gas, but I actually thought he was pretty average in the air. Long got a much better return out of it. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Segoe UI]Coleman, Long and McCarthy are a better class of footballer than the others surrounding them and are out of place in the current tactics. [/FONT]
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In hindsight, I’d like to update my assessment of Coleman’s performance to okay.
Still absolutely baffled by the decision a) not to augment the midfield from around the 60th minute and b) to retain a 4-4-2 when he brought Green on.
I think Brian Kerr has a fair article in The Times today. I disagree with a couple of bits and pieces but not the overall point about the midfield needing supplementing. He would have went for Green, Whelan and McCarthy in midfield and one upfront to see it out in the last 15 minutes.
My take was that a change needed to be made earlier and, at that stage, it wouldn’t necessarily have been to “see it out” by having enough bodies in midfield, moreso to generally exert some control on the game and to allow us to keep the ball rather than hoofing it away to them constantly. I thought it would have been ideal to bring on Hoolahan for Sammon and ask him to do similar to what he did against Poland in terms of linking the midfield and attack and getting us playing in their half.
I think Sammon was also okay last night but I don’t think he was what was required and I don’t think he’s good enough to be playing.
Also I thought Walters had a poor game last night, two goals aside obviously
Chippy Brady tried to argue last night that most of our good players player for teams in the lower half of the Premier League and said that Pogatetz and Weimann (West Ham and Aston Villa respectively) were better than the players we have.
Fucking gimp.
Bring me a higher class of manager.
That is unintentionally fucking hilarious.
[quote=“FingalRaven, post: 752588, member: 80”]all in all a decent result against a good strong Austrian team
Im happy with the result[/quote]
Settling for mediocrity as usual, mate.
[quote=“Bandage, post: 752627, member: 9”]
By the way, I fucking despise John O’Shea.[/quote]
He’s been class for us in these two games, and has been Sunderland’s best player this season. Always a captain’s part from Sheasy.
Those two points will likely cost us qualification. We won’t beat Sweden here and a draw in Austria is the best we will do. Sweden will still likely nick second although I wouldn’t entirely rule out the Austrians. They have a good record historically against the Swedes.
[quote=“croppy_boy, post: 752765, member: 306”]Chippy Brady tried to argue last night that most of our good players player for teams in the lower half of the Premier League and said that Pogatetz and Weimann (West Ham and Aston Villa respectively) were better than the players we have.
Fucking gimp.[/quote]
Did he mention Pogatetez and Weimann? I thought be mentioned the Bundesliga players when making that point, but tuned out quite soon afterwards.
As regards O Shea, past criticism is fine, but he was alright last night and played more than a few decent balls out of defence, including one beauty around the corner when left short by Wilson who infuriates me.
I agree on Forde’s footwork, very poor last night.
Yeah he mentioned both of them. When Dunphy said Pogatetz was useless Brady said he was loan from Valencia or something like that.
I cant believe I missed him mentioning both of them. Pogatetz was a disgrace last, easily the worst footballer on the field. It beggars belief that Brady would namecheck him of all people.
All wumming aside, a blind man could see this. Without getting into his pedigree which is without question, can some of the pro-Trap camp explain why this wasn’t done? It was blatantly obvious to even the most casual observer that we were being completely overran and a change needed to be made.
So when it comes down to it, what we seem to be agreeing on is that there were changes that a blind man could see needed to be made, yet the manager didn’t make them, and not for the first time.
Trapattoni has been winging it for a long time now. His selection policy is disastrous, his man management and ability to make changes on the line when needed are non-existent. The chickens came home to roost in a big way in the last 20 minutes last night.
And to think we could have had Mick McCarthy, Ireland’s greatest ever manager, managing us last night if the change had been made in October. Now a great chance at World Cup qualification is likely to be sacrificed because of the manager’s stubborn and outdated approach.