Wrong again. It dealt with your first point in its entirety. I stopped reading your post after that because your first point was so stupid/wilfully ignorant/pointscorey.
Here’s my first point again, mate:
Fine Gael and Fianna Fail have consistently made it very clear that they will not, under any circumstances, consider Sinn Fein as a potential coalition partner.
It’s more than a bit disingenuous of them to then criticise Sinn Fein for “not wanting to go into government” when those parties have made it very clear all along that they will absolutely refuse to consider any such arrangement, don’t you think?
You’ll note if you read it properly that it’s addressed at both the hypocrisy of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, and the hypocrisy of your views in not considering their views hypocritical. You seem confused and still haven’t given a proper answer.
You also haven’t answered the point about the hypocrisy of your non-criticism of Labour’s refusal to take part in any prospective government with ideologically similar parties.
I’m making points, you’re the one attempting to score them in a childish manner.
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Sidney, why is it so hard to understand? WHY?
The double standards when it comes to SF is unreal. Im not a Sinn Fein supporter but what I would like to know @Juhniallio is, why is it ok for FF and FG to say they will not under any circumstances go into government with Sinn Fein but when Sinn Fein say that they will not go into government with FF and FG its a big issue?
Considering the fate of the parties who have gone into government with FF or FG over the last few governments it would make any party think twice about getting into bed with them.
I don’t understand this at all. The proposal that they put forward at the time of the election was for them to return to a FG led government. They have a very small mandate because most people didn’t like that proposal very much at all, but what mandate they do have is an absolute support for them to be supporting Enda Kenny as Taoiseach.
It may not be wise or palatable for them to do so, but they clearly campaigned for and got their TDs on the back of supporting a FG government. So they have no better excuse than anyone else for running away from it now. In fact they have less of an excuse because others were clear on what they would or wouldn’t do before the election.
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Mandates, shmandates. Irish political parties will always follow what’s best for them, then dress it up in talk of mandates or duty.
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Agree, it’s a load of nonsense. If you get voted into our national chamber you can form a government, it’s always been that way. People fiddle ‘mandates’ whichever way they see fit.
The reality is that;
- Labour don’t want to go into government as they want to rebuild their grassroots
- FF think its beneath them to be the second partner in Government
- FG see SF as beneath them
- FF see SF as not only beneath them, but a long term threat
- SF would quite like to be lead opposition so they can further build for the next election. Wrong time for them to go in and renage on all their promises
- Independents have no intention of ever being in government and want to be rabble rousers on the backbenches or leaching for their constituency
The Inter Party government of 48 where Dick Mulcahy was sidelined, Des O’Malley going back in with Charlie, Labour palling up with FF after the anti FF Spring Tide and the Greens joining with FF in 07 proves people can join up with who they want to.
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I understand that you don’t understand it at all. So I’ll explain it. The electorate overwhelmingly rejected the Labour ‘vision’ as promoted by Burton. However, as anybody with half an interest iIrish politics would know, Labour were decimated because of what they did over the last few years not what they proposed to do over the next few. Even if your smart-arse hypothesis were true, it falls flat because the percentage vot Labour got was so low, obviously a rejection of ‘Labour’. The TD’s who were elected had all very high personal votes over the years. I would distinguish these as personality votes of confidence rather than votes for the party.
So, in short, you came up with a lovely smartarse theory, but it was complete bollox. You’re no Tom Clarke for the scheming.
That is complete tosh, with respect.
You’re basically arguing that Labour have no responsibilities because they got so few votes. Should they just stay at home then? Their poor electoral performance was not surprising but it’s a reflection of the proposal they put forward. Even Joan herself got elected herself. Was that a rejection of Burton?
They didn’t get “personality votes of confidence.” They got votes based on a very clear proposal to return to government with FG. It was an appalling strategy, doubtless, and I don’t blame them for running a mile from it. But arguing that they are somehow more noble and justified in not going into government is ridiculous. Their ineptitude and brutal decision-making does not excuse them of responsibility - it merely reinforces the magnitude of their downfall.
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According to Healy-Rae, we’ll be voting again May 20th. The way things are going, I wouldnt bet against it.
Greens pulled out today so realistically its up to FF and FG.
Cant see it happening in terms of a coalition. Only hope is a minority government that will last for about two years.
Willie O Dea said on the radio tonight that the one thing the Irish people don’t want is another election. I’d say that’s pure balls. The one things politicians don’t want is another election but the Irish public love elections.
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How do you see results turning out if we had another Election by Summer? Who would lose or gain? The public would surely change tact or is it possible a similar result could be voted in again?
Overall, I wouldn’t expect a huge change.
A lot would depend on who controls the narrative surrounding a second election. Now to any person with half a brain, the cause of it would be clear - Fianna Fail pig ignorance and arrogance in refusing to form a government with the party they are almost identical to in ideological terms. But FF are cunning and snake-like and I have no doubt they would be the ones to control the narrative at the hapless FG’s expense as they have done since the election. There is also now a real perception that Kenny is a lame duck whereas Martin isn’t.
Turnout would likely be down. That would probably work in FG and FF’s favour. If the same amount of people voted in May as did in February, FG and FF could expect to both lose a few seats. But a lower turnout will offset that because it’ll be likely be independent and left voters who don’t vote again, you would think.
Independent candidates might struggle to run another campaign so soon after February so there would probably be less candidates.
Another thing to factor in is that the gender quota is supposed to rise to 40% for the next election, whenever that is. That could be to the detriment of FG and FF as they would have to run place-filling candidates.
I think Sinn Fein would probably pick off the low hanging fruit they missed out on in February like Dublin West and Donegal, maybe Longford-Westmeath. But they might not retain Offaly. A lower turnout might also not help them.
Although hopefully now we’ve had the 1916 commemorations the public would be enthused with Republican fervour and that might result in a swing to SF. SF would also be best placed to force home the narrative that a second election would have been caused by FF arrogance.
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No I’m not basically arguing that at all. You’ve made up an argument and applied it to me for your own purposes. I’m saying Labour’s performance was based entirely on their performance in government over the previous 5 years. It had nothing to do with what they offered for the future. You’re a fool if you believe otherwise.
I’m also arguing that Labour’s candidates who got in had very strong personal votes. Obviously they had to because the party vote collapsed from 19% or so to just over 7%. Obviously that affected every candidate so the ones who were left benefited from strong personal votes for different reasons.
Sherlock in Cork has country nepotism running for him. There’s been a Sherlock seat in Cork East since 1981 so he survived the cull. He polled 13.2% almost double the national average.
Penrose in Westmeath logged 20% in 92, 24% in 97, 26% in 02, 17.6% in 07 and 19.8% in 2011. That’s absolutely phenomenal vote-getting from a Labour candidate. It’s a huge consistent vote for him defying the national trends for 25 years. That’s a huge personal vote. Please explain how Penrose could defy national voting trends for 25 years if it’s not a personal vote?
Brendan Ryan as you know is Dublin Fingal. No national profile to speak of. But his brother held a set here for years. A very high personal/family vote for him here gave him 10%, well over the national average. He was also helped by the constituency being a 5 seater so there was no pressure on him.
O Sullivan,and Howlin benefitted from huge personal votes due to their ministerial roles. I would speculate that O Sullivan was lucky that she was the only creditable female candidate as well.
Kelly also was hugely high profile. Ultimate marmite. We all know Tipperary has a history of electing huge self-interest personalities which is what Kelly is. He even ran his campaign as a personal one more than LAbour. His Key slogan was all about Tipp self-interest, ‘Keep Tipperary at the top table’. So a personal vote for Tipp. Even still he mainly got in due to disastrous FG vote management.
Which leaves Burton. That’s the biggest mystery of all. Labour heads pointed to a particularly lacklustre campaign by the SF candidate who apparently barely canvassed(complete hearsay) thinking he had it in the bag. But she polled twice the national average and got 15%. A massive personal vote.
So there you have it. 6 of those elected for Labour this year defied the national voting trend, and most of them have been longstanding TDs(or have had a family seat for years) showing a huge personal vote. Nothing to do with nobility or poor decision making or any of the bollox you are throwing at it. Just longstanding voter loyalty. And a fuck up by the opponents in Kelly’s case.
Again. You made up a lovely theory to be smartarsed. Some people got voted in on what they said they would do in the future, those who don’t really have a past to judge them on. Everyone knows Labour were judged on their last 5 years. To think otherwise is foolish.
Take the chip off your shoulder @tazdedub It’s not ok for any of them to say they won’t go in to together. The only differences are that FG are doing all they can to get in (for all the wrong reasons) while SF are doing absolutely nothing to get in (for all the wrong reasons). As I said, I’m a fan of compromise, I think they should roll their sleeves up and try to form a government and get some of their policies implemented.
Considering the fate of other parties shouldn’t really matter, that’s obviously putting your personal interests before the national interest.
Fine Gael, Fianna Fail and the media are as opposed to Sinn Fein being in government now as they were before the election.
Yet they’re throwing stones at Sinn Fein for “abdicating responsibility”.
Nice work if you can square that circle.
They’re also completely opposed to Sinn Fein leading the opposition.
I think what they want is for Sinn Fein to disappear altogether. Let me try and guess what Sinn Fein’s answer to that proposition would be. “Hmmmm. No.”
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Jesus Sidney, you really are stating the obvious there.
SF are playing a game and they are winning at the moment.
The tables will turn however if another election in six weeks throws up the same sort of result. The onus will then be on SF to do something other then roar from the opposition benches
All you’re doing is proving that in a time when Labour’s vote collapsed, anyone who kept their seat was defying the national trend. That was abundantly clear to everyone else already but well done on working it out for yourself.
Labour do not have any legitimate basis for refusing to support a FG government. All their TDs who were returned campaigned on the basis of supporting a FG government. All of them. I remain sympathetic to their instincts being to run away from that as quickly as possible. But that is an absolute reversal of their position. They have fuck all of a mandate, but the one they do have is fairly clear, though frightfully unpalatable.
I’m glad you can find logic in the spurious argument that Brendan Ryan doesn’t have to stand by his campaign promises because it’s his brother’s seat. I’m sure you convinced yourself that was a much more reasonable position than those dastardly left-wing politicians sticking by their pre-election promises.
Another election on the way by September is the only obvious conclusion at this stage.
Democracy is a fucking joke, there’s fuck all democratic about it in reality.
Again, you’re wilfully misinterpreting my argument. You often do this when losing. You’ve made up some strange argument about Brendan Ryan.
Let’s be clear. Again. I said people refused to vote for Labour because they hated what they did for the last 5 years. This is proven by the national trend. I said the ones who were elected had massive personal votes as provenby their loyal consistent followings for years who forgave them the last 5 years.
You said they were voted in because a small portion of people wanted them in with FG. Bizarre bollox made up on a whim earlier on but you are digging your feet in admirably.
the political parties couldnt afford another election. they cost a fortune