Absolutely incredible shit went on that I knew very little about till reading up a bit on it recently. It’s simply not taught in school or even history courses at third level really.
The Ballyseedy Massacre defies belief. Pro treaty forces, the legal army of the state, as a revenge for five of their own soldiers getting killed by a booby trapped road block authorised the clearing of road blocks by anti treaty prisoners. Days later nine prisoners were killed in what looked like the process of clearing a road block.
It turned out they were actually tied to a landmine and it was detonated. The story wouldn’t have got out but one of the nine actually survived and escaped.
Members of Michael Collins’ famous ‘squad’ from the Tan war actually turned out to be some of the most bloodthirsty cunts going when turning against their own.
The anti treaty lads cuntish acts included the assassination of Kevin O’Higgins elderly father and WT Cosgrave’s uncle but it definitely seems the ‘Free Staters’ were far worse, especially since they were meant to be the legitimate army of the new state.
The most amazing thing is that it all appeared to be completely senseless as almost everyone involved was just living together as normal less than ten years together with a load of the anti treaty lads taking their seats in the Dail without anything really have changed in terms of heads of state, oaths of allegiance or the small matter of the six counties.
Can TASE please get a little snidey comment or a :rolleyes: out of the way earlier as I’d be interested to hear what worthwhile posters know or think about the whole thing. Amazing the way it’s been brushed under the carpet really. No wonder the old school FF and FG lads hated each other so much.
good topic. i agree that people dont know enough about the period 1916-1923. them years built this country. some terrible shit went on, especially during the civil war
Read about this years ago. The civil war (and WoI) is full of grisly stories like that have been stricken from the collective memory. Lot of murders during those years came from old local rivalries btw, many between protestants and catholics. Time to be a pretentious bastard for a bit…
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]I have lived in important places, times[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]When great events were decided : who owned[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]That half a rood of rock, a no-man’s land[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]Surrounded by our pitchfork-armed claims.[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]I heard the Duffys shouting “Damn your soul”[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]And old McCabe stripped to the waist, seen[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]Step the plot defying blue cast-steel -[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]“Here is the march along these iron stones.”[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]That was the year of the Munich bother. Which[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]Was most important ? I inclined[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]To lose my faith in Ballyrush and Gortin[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]Till Homer’s ghost came whispering to my mind.[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]He said : I made the Iliad from such[/font]
[font=“Comic Sans MS”][color="#000000"]A local row. Gods make their own importance.[/font]
That’s true Totti but less than five years later, Dev and the rest were taking the oath and sitting in the Dail. And very very little ever happened in the South again or the North for nearly 50 years. Why such a ridiculously vicious 18 months and then nothing again despite nothing really changing?
Bishop B I think we all know plenty about 1916 - 22 it’s the Civil War that is brushed right under the carpet.
I would have read an awful lot on the 1916 to 1921 period, but very little on the couple of years that followed it.
As you say, it wasn’t even mentioned in school, my grandfather who loved to talk history never mentioned it. It’s only when you dig deeper that you can see why people are so reluctant to talk about what went on. It’s tragic really to think they sunk to those depths against each other after the fight they put to the Brits.
[quote=“gola, post: 663432”]How much do people know about this?
Absolutely incredible shit went on that I knew very little about till reading up a bit on it recently. It’s simply not taught in school or even history courses at third level really.
The Ballyseedy Massacre defies belief. Pro treaty forces, the legal army of the state, as a revenge for five of their own soldiers getting killed by a booby trapped road block authorised the clearing of road blocks by anti treaty prisoners. Days later nine prisoners were killed in what looked like the process of clearing a road block.
It turned out they were actually tied to a landmine and it was detonated. The story wouldn’t have got out but one of the nine actually survived and escaped.
Members of Michael Collins’ famous ‘squad’ from the Tan war actually turned out to be some of the most bloodthirsty cunts going when turning against their own.
The anti treaty lads cuntish acts included the assassination of Kevin O’Higgins elderly father and WT Cosgrave’s uncle but it definitely seems the ‘Free Staters’ were far worse, especially since they were meant to be the legitimate army of the new state.
The most amazing thing is that it all appeared to be completely senseless as almost everyone involved was just living together as normal less than ten years together with a load of the anti treaty lads taking their seats in the Dail without anything really have changed in terms of heads of state, oaths of allegiance or the small matter of the six counties.
Can TASE please get a little snidey comment or a out of the way earlier as I’d be interested to hear what worthwhile posters know or think about the whole thing. Amazing the way it’s been brushed under the carpet really. No wonder the old school FF and FG lads hated each other so much.[/quote]gola people of my generation knew well about Ballyseedy. It was no great secret and I believe it was the subject of a Dail committee.
There are things which are still fairly secret and in particular the activities of the Oriel House gang. And indeed it’s funding. One of the remarkable things about the post Civil War era was how the son of the killer of Sean Lemass’s brother was elevated to the highest office in one of the most important parts of the Fianna Fail empire.
There’s no real definitive answer for that. Some were sick of the bloodshed I suppose and saw the futility in it, some sold out for the lavish lives they could lead as part of the establishment. It’s the people who stood through to their convictions till their death that I admire - people like Dan Keating and Tom Maguire.
Not much changed after the war of independence never mind the civil war. It must have been the most ideology free ‘revolution’ in history.[/quote]
On the contrary there was a sustained counter revolution after the Civil War which saw the middle and professional classes ( who to be fair were important actors in the War of Independence) consolidate their hold on the nation. In no sense did we have a workers revolution. The workers were too busy putting bread on the table.
Most revolutions would be driven by calls for social reform, as in they’d be fighting for something that actually mattered to the people. The Irish war of independence, to use the cliche, changed nothing more than the accents of the powerful and the colour of the flag. It was the worst kind of fanatical nationalism, utterly devoid of any achievements beyond the narrowest political reforms imaginable. Ireland went from being ruled from a crowd of upper class conservatives in London to a crowd of social conservatives in Dublin. The democratic programme was thrown out the window as soon as power had been handed over.
The most laughable political cliche in Ireland is the idea that we are defined by civil war politics. No political ideas emerged from the era at all.
