That isnât what TUM is saying though. It was the Church who were given the room to control the workings of everyday Irish life by De Valera, not Dev himself wielding any dictatorial power, leaving open the possibility of a continuation of the church dominance in spite of a FF electoral defeat.
Also, he may not of introduced the culture but there is no doubt that he perpetuated, institutionalised it and increased the stranglehold it had on every area of Irish society. To argue otherwise is daft.
[QUOTE=âflattythehurdler, post: 941237, member: 1170â]The facts that we know are that a middle aged lady was abducted in front of her children, driven across the border, tortured, adjudicated upon by a lynch mob, and had her brains blown out by her torturers before being left to rot in an unmarked grave. Her children were then further stigmatised deliberately by rumour being spread that she had run off with a British soldier.
What she may or may not have done is in dispute. It is in my opinion irrelevant. Her treatment was abhorrent. Anyone who thinks this is some sort of grey area, citing justification that she may or may not have been " an informer" ( whatever that is, or was at the time) has something wrong with them in my opinion. There is little point in my saying anything else on the matter. If you find this naive and dumb so be it. I am more than slightly taken aback to be honest.[/QUOTE]
How does one debate the Jean McConville killing (or indeed anything) with someone who doesnât know what an informer is?
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 941247, member: 2272â]Protestants were sort of right though in that Home Rule meant Rome Rule and led to institutional abuse of children on an almost industrial scale by the Catholic Church and the shame of Magdalene Laundries.
It also led to mass emigration from Ireland on unprecedented levels.
Better to be the driver of your own car crash though.
We sort of managed to turn it around in the end by joining the EU and handing over large parts of our sovereignty willingly.[/QUOTE]
Unprecedented levels? Are you for real? Are you just ignoring the vastly larger numbers that left Ireland under British rule just 100 years before or are they a myth?
I am beginning to think this Ulterior Motive fellow has to be a wum. Nobody could be that fucking stupid.
Fairly balanced article from Fintan claiming that Adams is being singled out, and the perpetrators of other atrocities are not being sought⌠All or nothing.
The perpetrators of other atrocities do not present an electoral threat.
[QUOTE=âflattythehurdler, post: 941237, member: 1170â]The facts that we know are that a middle aged lady was abducted in front of her children, driven across the border, tortured, adjudicated upon by a lynch mob, and had her brains blown out by her torturers before being left to rot in an unmarked grave. Her children were then further stigmatised deliberately by rumour being spread that she had run off with a British soldier.
What she may or may not have done is in dispute. It is in my opinion irrelevant. Her treatment was abhorrent. Anyone who thinks this is some sort of grey area, citing justification that she may or may not have been " an informer" ( whatever that is, or was at the time) has something wrong with them in my opinion. There is little point in my saying anything else on the matter. If you find this naive and dumb so be it. I am more than slightly taken aback to be honest.[/QUOTE]
She was an informant, it would be naive you think otherwise and the information she was providing could have put many innocent nationalists lives at risk. Hard to feel any sympathy for her.
[QUOTE=âflattythehurdler, post: 941237, member: 1170â]The facts that we know are that a middle aged lady was abducted in front of her children, driven across the border, tortured, adjudicated upon by a lynch mob, and had her brains blown out by her torturers before being left to rot in an unmarked grave. Her children were then further stigmatised deliberately by rumour being spread that she had run off with a British soldier.
What she may or may not have done is in dispute. It is in my opinion irrelevant. Her treatment was abhorrent. Anyone who thinks this is some sort of grey area, citing justification that she may or may not have been " an informer" ( whatever that is, or was at the time) has something wrong with them in my opinion. There is little point in my saying anything else on the matter. If you find this naive and dumb so be it. I am more than slightly taken aback to be honest.[/QUOTE]
You obviously have a problem with the taking of human life. Sometimes I fail to accept that the taking of human life is somehow justified because of being in a war situation. Surely it can never be justified? But the reality is that sometimes it is the only way to force change over a unjust situation that shows no signs of being changed through conventional discussion. It also is required to protect oneâs community when the forces of law and order cannot be trusted to do so.
Northern Ireland since itâs creation was a horrible cesspit of injustice. People were denied the right to vote because of their religion. Loyalists mobs roamed areas freely burning Catholics out of their homes with no intervention from a corrupt and sectarian police force. Those who fought back were thrown in jail without a trial. No loyalists suffered the same fate. Those who peacefully protested were shot dead by the army of the civilised nation which ruled.
Think about that for a second. Horrific, horrific stuff. Of course arguably the biggest injustice was the fact that these peopleâs, second class citizens in this âstateâ, only crime was allegiance to the State in which they lived. Not a âstateâ which was planted with some of the most horrible creatures in the history of mankind, but the 32 county Ireland. People say that the IRA had no mandate - how were they meant to get one when their supporters didnât have a vote.
Some brave people stood up. Some people may not call them brave but I do. They had an aim - restore a 32 county republic - just like those in 1916. In fact they were probably in a worse situation than those in 1916, they were living in horrible conditions and were seen as murderers by most of the 26 county âstateâ. But they gathered themselves into one of the most incredibly run and disciplined units against one of the most powerful armies in the world. So much so that in the mid 80s, Thatcher effectively surrendered in the security war and went into talks.
An army so committed and devout in its aims need to be run with ruthlessness. Otherwise, they wouldnât have lasted a year. The story which is said and I believe about Jean McConville was that she was an informer and was warned once by the IRA to stop, given her situation. The British Army targeted her again and when she was caught a second time then there was only one outcome. I donât know if I would say that I justify it, but I can certainly understand why it happened. Where I would point as much blame is to the British and the Loyalists in Northern Ireland who created an environment so shocking that people would go to such measures.
[QUOTE=âfarmerinthecity, post: 941318, member: 24â]You obviously have a problem with the taking of human life. Sometimes I fail to accept that the taking of human life is somehow justified because of being in a war situation. Surely it can never be justified? But the reality is that sometimes it is the only way to force change over a unjust situation that shows no signs of being changed through conventional discussion. It also is required to protect oneâs community when the forces of law and order cannot be trusted to do so.
Northern Ireland since itâs creation was a horrible cesspit of injustice. People were denied the right to vote because of their religion. Loyalists mobs roamed areas freely burning Catholics out of their homes with no intervention from a corrupt and sectarian police force. Those who fought back were thrown in jail without a trial. No loyalists suffered the same fate. Those who peacefully protested were shot dead by the army of the civilised nation which ruled.
Think about that for a second. Horrific, horrific stuff. Of course arguably the biggest injustice was the fact that these peopleâs, second class citizens in this âstateâ, only crime was allegiance to the State in which they lived. Not a âstateâ which was planted with some of the most horrible creatures in the history of mankind, but the 32 county Ireland. People say that the IRA had no mandate - how were they meant to get one when their supporters didnât have a vote.
Some brave people stood up. Some people may not call them brave but I do. They had an aim - restore a 32 county republic - just like those in 1916. In fact they were probably in a worse situation than those in 1916, they were living in horrible conditions and were seen as murderers by most of the 26 county âstateâ. But they gathered themselves into one of the most incredibly run and disciplined units against one of the most powerful armies in the world. So much so that in the mid 80s, Thatcher effectively surrendered in the security war and went into talks.
An army so committed and devout in its aims need to be run with ruthlessness. Otherwise, they wouldnât have lasted a year. The story which is said and I believe about Jean McConville was that she was an informer and was warned once by the IRA to stop, given her situation. The British Army targeted her again and when she was caught a second time then there was only one outcome. I donât know if I would say that I justify it, but I can certainly understand why it happened. Where I would point as much blame is to the British and the Loyalists in Northern Ireland who created an environment so shocking that people would go to such measures.[/QUOTE]
Well said, mate. I canât hold a grudge against you for costing Liverpool the league when you post such beautiful, passionate words.
[QUOTE=âBlake, post: 941272, member: 1755â]That isnât what TUM is saying though. It was the Church who were given the room to control the workings of everyday Irish life by De Valera, not Dev himself wielding any dictatorial power, leaving open the possibility of a continuation of the church dominance in spite of a FF electoral defeat.
Also, he may not of introduced the culture but there is no doubt that he perpetuated, institutionalised it and increased the stranglehold it had on every area of Irish society. To argue otherwise is daft.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Archbishop McQuaid was effectively allowed draft large parts of the 1937 Constitution. Protestant population of 26 counties fell by more than 50% in 40 years. Industrial levels of child sex abuse, physical abuse in schools, women abused, censorship similar to a totalitarian regime, divorce banned, contraception outlawed etc etc.
It was quasi totalitarian presided over by clergy.
Emigration from Ireland in 1940s and 1950s ran to 700,000 people. In percentage of population terms that is on a par with 1850s. 1.1 million people emigrated from 1922 to 1989. Outside war zones that is unprecedented. Do we blame UK for post independence emigration?
We ran a failed state. Lemass ultimately saved the country.
[QUOTE=âfarmerinthecity, post: 941318, member: 24â]You obviously have a problem with the taking of human life. Sometimes I fail to accept that the taking of human life is somehow justified because of being in a war situation. Surely it can never be justified? But the reality is that sometimes it is the only way to force change over a unjust situation that shows no signs of being changed through conventional discussion. It also is required to protect oneâs community when the forces of law and order cannot be trusted to do so.
Northern Ireland since itâs creation was a horrible cesspit of injustice. People were denied the right to vote because of their religion. Loyalists mobs roamed areas freely burning Catholics out of their homes with no intervention from a corrupt and sectarian police force. Those who fought back were thrown in jail without a trial. No loyalists suffered the same fate. Those who peacefully protested were shot dead by the army of the civilised nation which ruled.
Think about that for a second. Horrific, horrific stuff. Of course arguably the biggest injustice was the fact that these peopleâs, second class citizens in this âstateâ, only crime was allegiance to the State in which they lived. Not a âstateâ which was planted with some of the most horrible creatures in the history of mankind, but the 32 county Ireland. People say that the IRA had no mandate - how were they meant to get one when their supporters didnât have a vote.
Some brave people stood up. Some people may not call them brave but I do. They had an aim - restore a 32 county republic - just like those in 1916. In fact they were probably in a worse situation than those in 1916, they were living in horrible conditions and were seen as murderers by most of the 26 county âstateâ. But they gathered themselves into one of the most incredibly run and disciplined units against one of the most powerful armies in the world. So much so that in the mid 80s, Thatcher effectively surrendered in the security war and went into talks.
An army so committed and devout in its aims need to be run with ruthlessness. Otherwise, they wouldnât have lasted a year. The story which is said and I believe about Jean McConville was that she was an informer and was warned once by the IRA to stop, given her situation. The British Army targeted her again and when she was caught a second time then there was only one outcome. I donât know if I would say that I justify it, but I can certainly understand why it happened. Where I would point as much blame is to the British and the Loyalists in Northern Ireland who created an environment so shocking that people would go to such measures.[/QUOTE]
Accepting all that do you think the armed struggle went on far too long as achievement of a 32 county united Ireland through armed conflict was never a realistically obtainable goal. Sunningdale in 1973 should have ended it. We ended up with much the same agreement 25 years later.
Whatâs unprecedented is the number of errors you have managed to cram into that one little paragraph. My favourite piece is how you say âon a par with the 1850sâ right before you describe it as being unprecedented.
That was Sunningdale that was vehemently opposed by the unionist population, where they called a strike, gave rise to the vanguard and when nuts like Paisley really started to make a name for himself. If Sunningdale had gone ahead that time, I dare not think of the genocidal reprisals that the orange filth would have gone about.
Were the Provos responsible for the Ulster Workers Council as well then?
Semantics. Shorthand. Deflection.
Unprecedented in a modern western democracy that is not a war zone. How about that?
Numbers are accurate. Based on 26 counties Ireland post 1922.
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 941328, member: 2272â]Exactly. Archbishop McQuaid was effectively allowed draft large parts of the 1937 Constitution. Protestant population of 26 counties fell by more than 50% in 40 years. Industrial levels of child sex abuse, physical abuse in schools, women abused, censorship similar to a totalitarian regime, divorce banned, contraception outlawed etc etc.
It was quasi totalitarian presided over by clergy.
Emigration from Ireland in 1940s and 1950s ran to 700,000 people. In percentage of population terms that is on a par with 1850s. 1.1 million people emigrated from 1922 to 1989. Outside war zones that is unprecedented. Do we blame UK for post independence emigration?
We ran a failed state. Lemass ultimately saved the country.[/QUOTE]
The State did in its fuck fail. It survived against massive odds in one of the most difficult periods in history, through a world war and the greatest depression in history, with a hostile Great Power on its back door.
Neither supported it. But 25 years of bombs and informers and kids being killed resulted in the same Provos administering Northern Ireland on behalf of the British. Unionists were of course no better.
The armed struggle went on too long. It could never succeed in what its stated aims were.
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 941344, member: 2272â]Semantics. Shorthand. Deflection.
Unprecedented in a modern western democracy that is not a war zone. How about that?
Numbers are accurate. Based on 26 counties Ireland post 1922.[/QUOTE]
Modern?
The numbers are slightly inflated. Youâve also opted to add two decades together to compare to one decade in the 19th century. And I donât even think you realise how that distorts everything.
Inform them and theyâll be better informed.
It failed. The only other country in the world whose population declined in 1950s was East Germany. They built a wall.