Oh, youâd offer it willingly would you? You would deny it to the fucking end if your life depended on it.
:rolleyes:
Pity they didnt have something more definitive like a ducking stool
Pity they didnt have something more definitive like a ducking stool[/QUOTE]
They had her transmitter radio, the few belts was only to get her to admit it was hers⌠High jinx
When is the time frame up on when the British have to release the names of Divis informants?
Birmingham Six and Guildford 4 confessions cast question marks over any confession extracted after being tortured
Jean was caught with a radio and had been warned already about offering information- come on now, itâs hardly the same.
True, the birmingham 6 and the guildford 4 were at least given a trial and lawyers. They even got appeals and compensation
I agree. But if they knew she was an informer there was then probably no need to torture her. Not like they needed to convince a judge and jury of it.
I think in a lot of these cases people were escaped goats or personal grudges were settled. There is no need to brutalise somebody you are going to kill unless you are trying to convince somebody else of something or unless it is somehow personal. Other people were weak and British used them under coercion knowing they would be killed and treated them as expendable.
Main issue with McConville though was hiding the body and not returning it. In Ireland (maybe everywhere) there is/was an obsession with giving a person a funeral and at a human level having a body allows grieving/closure. Without a body the wound never closes and attention is constantly brought back to it.
When they killed the other lady Moreland who was an informer in the mid 90s (and apparently had terminal cancer) the body was dumped and found and it doesnât grow as an issue like the McConville case.
:rolleyes:
How would a state trial for Jean and other such touts have worked, Art? Can you not see the difference between an armed struggle carried out by oppressed minority vs a state purporting to be definition of Liberal democracy?
[QUOTE=âtwiceasnice97, post: 941557, member: 1061â]A well argued and well thought out post up to a point. i agree with a lot of this but certainly not all of it. The point where it falls down for me is the belief endemic in so many individuals that in order to defend anyone or anything done in the conflict you must defend everyone and everything.
The leadership of sinn fein who came through the conflict and created the peace we now enjoy are, to my mind, some of the greatest men ireland has ever produced. They found themselves in a corrupt bigoted state and decided to do something about it. I personally don`t believe adams about his ira membership sh1tology. he made some claims at a time he needed to in order to move the peace process onwards and now he is caught on that hook. So what, is my view on that
I also don`t believe he was involved in killing jean mcconville. He may have been in charge of the ira in that area but my guess is that the thugs who slaughtered her had it done before he knew a thing about it and he or whoever else was left to deal with the aftermath. The attempt to involve him was done by hughes and prcice who felt that adams was a traitor for negotiating the good friday agreement
You claim that you believe she was an informer and was warned to stop but she did it again and then was executed in the normal fashion. I dont buy that for a second and if you think about it yourself for any length of time in a rational way i dont think your gut will lead you astray.
The people claiming she was an informer had a vested interest in blackening her name. This was a woman who was assaulted by loyalists and who had a son in the IRA living in the middle of dangerous republicans who were threatening her.
It is far more likely that one of the scum that killed her who actually knew what the fuck was going on was informing and needed a scapegoat.
the brutality of the beating she received points to the fact that she did not admit she was an informer at all.[/QUOTE]
I certainly donât defend everyone and everything the IRA has done. No way. Kingsmill was sickening and in no way justifiable.
I was reading last night about the My Lai massacre in Vietnam where the US Army slaughtered men, women and children and gang raped women including multilating them. The US Army - with their mandate. And the force of good in the world.
My point is that despite how noble a war may be in idealogy, you get monsters involved. It is never as black and white as some of the clowns on here would like to paint it.
By the way what Sinn Fein members do you believe to be the greatest men Ireland have ever produced? Adams? McGuinness?
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 941585, member: 2272â]I agree. But if they knew she was an informer there was then probably no need to torture her. Not like they needed to convince a judge and jury of it.
I think in a lot of these cases people were escaped goats or personal grudges were settled. There is no need to brutalise somebody you are going to kill unless you are trying to convince somebody else of something or unless it is somehow personal. Other people were weak and British used them under coercion knowing they would be killed and treated them as expendable.
Main issue with McConville though was hiding the body and not returning it. In Ireland (maybe everywhere) there is/was an obsession with giving a person a funeral and at a human level having a body allows grieving/closure. Without a body the wound never closes and attention is constantly brought back to it.
When they killed the other lady Moreland who was an informer in the mid 90s (and apparently had terminal cancer) the body was dumped and found and it doesnât grow as an issue like the McConville case.[/QUOTE]
could they not round them up and catch them and put them back from where they escaped?
[QUOTE=âfarmerinthecity, post: 941602, member: 24â]I certainly donât defend everyone and everything the IRA has done. No way. Kingsmill was sickening and in no way justifiable.
I was reading last night about the My Lai massacre in Vietnam where the US Army slaughtered men, women and children and gang raped women including multilating them. The US Army - with their mandate. And the force of good in the world.
My point is that despite how noble a war may be in idealogy, you get monsters involved. It is never as black and white as some of the clowns on here would like to paint it.
By the way what Sinn Fein members do you believe to be the greatest men Ireland have ever produced? Adams? McGuinness?[/QUOTE]
I donât think anyone here is defending everything the IRA did- You coudnât, but some of us understand the conditions that gave rise to the atrocities that were carried out- The others have no interest in understanding it as it doesnât sit with their outlook on life- Conservative, servile and colonized. Iâve siad it before- One of the greatest psychological factors to happen a colonized people once they gain independence is to emulate the culture and mindset of their past masters- Stockholm syndrome on a grand scale- This country is awash with it. The middle class castle cathoilc power grab after the Brits had gone has meant that nothing really changed in this country⌠These servile bastards went on to fill the civil service, media and governemnt - Thatâs whay we have no tradition of protest in this country. No back bone. We are led, informed and served by servile bastards. Just because a few lads like Tan enjoy a bit of GAA doesnât make you a true blue Gael (Christ I hate when GAA fans use that expression) TUM, Art Foley too- Youâre self loathing is probably a product of your ancestors taking soup and wanting to eat the scraps off the table from the big house.
@farmerinthecity - Iâve read a few books on My Lai, disturbing to say the least but a great insight into the horrors of war and what humans are truely capable off given a certain circumstances. The mind can go to a very dark place---- but of course, thereâs only right and wrong in the world at the end of the day.
[QUOTE=âfarmerinthecity, post: 941602, member: 24â]
My point is that despite how noble a war may be in idealogy, you get monsters involved.[/QUOTE]
maybe even psychopaths? ⌠:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=âMark Renton, post: 941609, member: 1796â]I donât think anyone here is defending everything the IRA did- You coudnât, but some of us understand the conditions that gave rise to the atrocities that were carried out- The others have no interest in understanding it as it doesnât sit with their outlook on life- Conservative, servile and colonized. Iâve siad it before- One of the greatest psychological factors to happen a colonized people once they gain independence is to emulate the culture and mindset of their past masters- Stockholm syndrome on a grand scale- This country is awash with it. The middle class castle cathoilc power grab after the Brits had gone has meant that nothing really changed in this country⌠These servile bastards went on to fill the civil service, media and governemnt - Thatâs whay we have no tradition of protest in this country. No back bone. We are led, informed and served by servile bastards. Just because a few lads like Tan enjoy a bit of GAA doesnât make you a true blue Gael (Christ I hate when GAA fans use that expression) TUM, Art Foley too- Youâre self loathing is probably a product of your ancestors taking soup and wanting to eat the scraps off the table from the big house.
@farmerinthecity - Iâve read a few books on My Lai, disturbing to say the least but a great insight into the horrors of war and what humans are truely capable off given a certain circumstances. The mind can go to a very dark place---- but of course, thereâs only right and wrong in the world at the end of the day.[/QUOTE]
100% agree. We are self loathing. And proud of it.
The Liverbird on the side of this post makes it resonate more for me. Liverpool is no more part of the UK than Belfast.
There are psychopaths all around you, pal. Most of them are every day blokes who never carry out murders or crime⌠You need to look up the definition of a psychopath. We all have the capability of carrying out horrible actions.
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 941615, member: 2272â]100% agree. We are self loathing. And proud of it.
The Liverbird on the side of this post makes it resonate more for me. Liverpool is no more part of the UK than Belfast.[/QUOTE]
Liverpool is a form of entertainment, pal,⌠Iâd rather not talk about them at this moment tho so if you could just halt that conversation right there please.
Ill gut Art Fooley, Black & Tan & Mac if they continue with their pro union bullshit
o_O:clap: