How many years was it given?
The lower tier hurling competitions seem to be gradually gaining acceptance after counties get over the original embarrassment of playing in them.
[quote=“gola, post: 795668, member: 244”]Sid makes some very good points there but I really think the 2 or 3 tier system could work if given time to bed in. There will always be opposition to it originally but over time the likes of Wicklow and carlow would realise playing at their own level with a realistic chance of winning something is far more enjoyable than the pastings they are taking lately. Teams could build and move up a level if and when ready.
It works perfectly at club level in the Gaa already with junior and intermediate championships.[/quote]
I don’t think you can take what happens at club level and just apply it to inter-county and expect it to work, and again it’s largely because of tradition, which dies harder in GAA than in any other sport. There is a tradition of intermediate and junior club championships. The tradition at inter-county (in football at least) has always been that all counties compete in the same competition. You can’t compare a small club like, say, Wanderers in Dublin with a county like Leitrim or Carlow.
In every other sport the league is the big prize compared to the knockout cup whereas in GAA it has always been the opposite.
A two or three -tier championship would necessitate a league system and effectively abolish the knockout tradition of the championship. I don’t find that appealing and I doubt paying spectators would.
If you go with a two or three-tier league format do you abolish the National Leagues? If so you’re then drastically shortening the inter-county season. If you keep them there may not be enough time to play all the matches.
Part of the attraction for small counties is the constant hope, however misplaced, for your day in the sun. For a county like Leitrim or Westmeath, that provincial title they have is precious, even if there’s no real prospect of them winning another one in the near future. The knockout system gives them a better chance of punching above their weight because the chance of the shock is always there, however slim. It would not be there in a league system. If a county like Leitrim or Carlow was consigned to a Tier 3 league format championship, there realistically will never be any light at the end of the tunnel, no chance of ever causing an upset, and no hope. Some county football teams may end up ceasing to exist. One of the common complaints about the back door system is that it benefits the stronger counties. A tiered, league format championship will benefit them more. The knockout system (or at least the backdoor system) evens out the inequalities to some extent. A league system will just permanently cement those inequalities in stone. Then you might have suggestions of county amalgamations or even the total abolition of the county system in favour of franchises or something.
There will never be a system that pleases everybody because from top to bottom, the GAA system is imperfect and inequalities and inconsistencies are fundamentally built into it in terms of population and playing strength, conflict between club and inter-county and conflict between hurling and football. You could have a great hurler from Mayo or Cavan who might be as good as Henry Shefflin but will never play at the top level. That’s unfair and it would only happen in the GAA but it’s the price of the county and club system we have. There may be an argument for a Team Ulster or Team Connacht amalgamation etc in hurling as it’s a far more specialised, skilful game than Gaelic football, and at least half the counties have no chance of ever making any kind of impression, and no support for their county teams, but I don’t think there is in football.
I like the concept of the back door. It effectively gives you two championships in one. A county like Louth can still aim for a Leinster title yet still make an impression on the championship if and when they’re knocked out of Leinster. It mixes tradition and modernity while still keeping a knockout edge all through. Why some counties don’t take the backdoor seriously (like Offaly), I have no idea, but if they don’t take the back door seriously, I don’t see them taking a Tier 3 league format championship seriously. I also like the unpredictability of the weekly qualifier draws, and sometimes they throw up gems, like Kilkenny v Tipp this week and Kerry v Tyrone last year.
No I’d have the junior and intermediate all Irelands as two strikes and your out knockouts, same as the senior.
I really think the qualifiers are becoming more and more meaningless for a lot of the weaker counties as the novelty wears off. Something will have to be done and id say it will over time. County teams like Offaly and Wicklow will all but fold if they put in all the training they are to ship trouncings like last weekend. Fans won’t want to watch and players won’t want to play. It’s happening already in a lot of cases.
OK, let’s do an example. You have three tiers with a two strike rule - ie a backdoor. You’d probably have to do it as 12 in Tier 1 with 10 each in Tier 2 and 3.
I’ll do out Tier 1 for an example.
12 counties compete:
Dublin
Kerry
Cork
Mayo
Donegal
Tyrone
Kildare
Down
Armagh
Derry
Galway
Meath
6 ties with the winners going into the All-Ireland Tier 1 quarter finals.
Dublin v Down
Meath v Cork
Galway v Tyrone
Armagh v Kerry
Donegal v Mayo
Kildare v Derry
Winners Dublin, Cork, Tyrone, Kerry, Donegal and Kildare progress to the A/I Q/Fs.
Losers section with 2 to emerge to the All-Ireland Q/Fs:
Down v Meath - winners to play Galway
Armagh v Mayo, winners play Derry
Down and Mayo emerge.
All-Ireland Quarter Finals:
Dublin v Donegal
Kerry V Cork
Mayo v Kildare
Tyrone v Down
Semis: Dublin v Kerry, Mayo v Tyrone
Final: Dublin v Mayo
Dublin win the All-Ireland having played four matches, Mao having come through the losers’ section have played 6.
Meath and Armagh play-off to avoid relegation to Tier 2, or perhaps both are relegated if you want two counties rather than one to switch between tiers every year.
First round ties played over the last weekend in May and the first weekend in June. Backdoor round 1 played on the third weekend in June, round 2 on the fourth. All-Ireland Quarter-Finals played on the second week in July, semi-finals on the first and second weekends in August, final on the last Sunday in August or first Sunday in September.
Personally I think I’d get bored of that format of a championship very quickly.
[quote=“Sidney, post: 795704, member: 183”]OK, let’s do an example. You have three tiers with a two strike rule - ie a backdoor. You’d probably have to do it as 12 in Tier 1 with 10 each in Tier 2 and 3.
I’ll do out Tier 1 for an example.
12 counties compete:
Dublin
Kerry
Cork
Mayo
Donegal
Tyrone
Kildare
Down
Armagh
Derry
Galway
Meath
6 ties with the winners going into the All-Ireland Tier 1 quarter finals.
Dublin v Down
Meath v Cork
Galway v Tyrone
Armagh v Kerry
Donegal v Mayo
Kildare v Derry
Winners Dublin, Cork, Tyrone, Kerry, Donegal and Kildare progress to the A/I Q/Fs.
Losers section with 2 to emerge to the All-Ireland Q/Fs:
Down v Meath - winners to play Galway
Armagh v Mayo, winners play Derry
Down and Mayo emerge.
All-Ireland Quarter Finals:
Dublin v Donegal
Kerry V Cork
Mayo v Kildare
Tyrone v Down
Semis: Dublin v Kerry, Mayo v Tyrone
Final: Dublin v Mayo
Dublin win the All-Ireland having played four matches, Mao having come through the losers’ section have played 6.
Meath and Armagh play-off to avoid relegation to Tier 2, or perhaps both are relegated if you want two counties rather than one to switch between tiers every year.
First round ties played over the last weekend in May and the first weekend in June. Backdoor round 1 played on the third weekend in June, round 2 on the fourth. All-Ireland Quarter-Finals played on the second week in July, semi-finals on the first and second weekends in August, final on the last Sunday in August or first Sunday in September.
Personally I think I’d get bored of that format of a championship very quickly.[/quote]
Sounds ok to me. More or less what we have now in terms of competitive games with even more at stake because of the fear of relegation. Almost every game at every tier would be competitive and meaningful and would freshen up a bit every year with two up two down.
Can you come up with a system to link in the league too? League determines seeding or home advantage in each tier or something?
[quote=“gola, post: 795710, member: 244”]Sounds ok to me. More or less what we have now in terms of competitive games with even more at stake because of the fear of relegation. Almost every game at every tier would be competitive and meaningful and would freshen up a bit every year with two up two down.
Can you come up with a system to link in the league too? League determines seeding or home advantage in each tier or something?[/quote]
seriously?
if you’re actually following this type of a shite talk conversation about something you have no interest in you’re a far sadder cunt than I could have imagined.
I do have an interest in the continual decline of the GGA
Your avatar actually suggests you have an interest in seeing the continual decline of association football, mate.
of course I do, i dont want it to happen
You need to get a better avatar then, mate.
[quote=“caoimhaoin, post: 795462, member: 273”]I didn’t answer it cos it’s a load of old pub talk.
The main reason it’s not retained is two fold, it’s Amatuer and it’s not really set up to award the most consistent team.
That’s why we have a hard time picking winners and agreeing from year to year. Basically it’s a shit competition in structure.[/quote]
Kev I had this very thought over the weekend.
The only changes I’d make would be to merge Connacht and Munster and put New York and London into Ulster.
It’d give 3 eleven team tournaments. At lease everyone would have to win the same amount of games to win thing.
[quote=“Appendage, post: 795736, member: 11”]Kev I had this very thought over the weekend.
The only changes I’d make would be to merge Connacht and Munster and put New York and London into Ulster.
It’d give 3 eleven team tournaments. At lease everyone would have to win the same amount of games to win thing.[/quote]
Nah, while I agree with your thinking, te provincials have to go and the councils with them. These old lads in provincial councils are holding everybody else to ransom, it’s outrageous. Our nature though, like with the banks and developers and politicians, is to wait till things are completely fucked and broken before we do anything about it. Tht and our inability to be analytical and critical of people in powerful positions if the GAA if they are doing a shit job because they are a “sound lad”, a “auld lad” and the old beauty “they do it cos they love it and they give up their time”. As if the rest of us (especially players) do fuck all.
Ironically enough, if the IC scene was more like other codes, with a 8 or 16 team league, it would definitely suit this Dublin team right now. They would be top if the league for sure. I think Donegal would be exhausted and Kerry wouldn’t be set up to play that regularly. They would in time of course, but now it would suit Dublin and to a lesser extent Cork with their bigger panel.
Teams have plenty a games in the league,bring back the knockout system this backdoor is a load a gash and only suits bigger teams,why do cunts in the ga want to ape everything they see on Skype Sports champions league etc, fuck off
Yes but there’s no point in proposing something that won’t be accepted. My proposal was that the Munster and Connacht titles would remain but the winners of each would meet in what would effectively be the equivalent of the Ulster and Leinster finals. That wasn’t clear by me in the first place but there you go.
Ideally there’d be a reveloution but that’s not going to happen. All the bright young minds like Bandage are engaging in international business travel in an effort to drag this country back from the brink. They haven’t time to be formulating solutions to problems like this.
Massey the overwhelming majority of County players want that system, I think that’s reason enough. The league is devalued by counties not putting everything into it. Until the league rewards you with something tangible in our premier competition then it’s a waste of time and neither here nor there as a competition.
How about a structure like this:
Jan- Feb : Sigerson & all 3rd level comps ran off. No 3rd level leagues, just maybe pre Christmas blitzes.
March: Start of Club Leagues everywhere. Pre-season IC competition played over 3 weekends. Playing 2-3 40 min games within a weekend at designated Cities. Last weekend is a finals weekend. Last weekend in March is off for absolutely everyone.
April - May: IC All- Ireland Competitions start. 2 competitions, 16 in Sam McGuire, 18 in Tommy Murphy. 2 groups of 8 or 4 groups of 4. If former it’s hard going, play 3 weeks, have a break, play 4 more. If the latter you play every 2nd weekend. Either way you end up with 8 teams for 1/4’s. whoever you meet iTs on a home and away basis year on year, even if you don’t meet for 30 years. GAA decides this, not some dodgy agreement between counties themselves.
Club leagues continue, preferably on a 2 on 1 off rotation.
June: All Ireland’s 1st phase may run into June
June-July: All-Ireland’s completed by middle of July. Only game with possible replay is the final.
Club league finals played towards tail end of July (as happens in a few counties anyway)
July- August: Club championships begin. All County players are available. No back doors. Champions League style if the county prefers, but everything done in a set time frame. Counties fined and thrown out if club All-Ireland if not finished in time.
September: Final stages of club competitions
Oct,Nov, early Dec: All-Ireland club competitions completed.
I’m sure people can poke a few holes in that, but for me it’s quite simple. Players will actually play more “Championship” games within the year in a structures way. It will be a move away from alot of traditions. But fuck tradition when it’s not working.
And just watch the standard raise when club and counties play with some regularity. For me something like this is a no brainier.
[quote=“caoimhaoin, post: 795797, member: 273”]Nah, while I agree with your thinking, te provincials have to go and the councils with them. These old lads in provincial councils are holding everybody else to ransom, it’s outrageous. Our nature though, like with the banks and developers and politicians, is to wait till things are completely fucked and broken before we do anything about it. Tht and our inability to be analytical and critical of people in powerful positions if the GAA if they are doing a shit job because they are a “sound lad”, a “auld lad” and the old beauty “they do it cos they love it and they give up their time”. As if the rest of us (especially players) do fuck all.[/quote]It’s possible to maintain the provincial competitions and get rid of the provincial councils. Then all fixtures are controlled centrally so there won’t be any more silly clashes in schedule and it can be ensured that the best games are televised. Rejig the provinces so there are an equal (or close to equal) number of teams in each. In reality this is the next step to reformat the competitions, bigger changes will be balked at.
[quote=“caoimhaoin, post: 795873, member: 273”]Massey the overwhelming majority of County players want that system, I think that’s reason enough. The league is devalued by counties not putting everything into it. Until the league rewards you with something tangible in our premier competition then it’s a waste of time and neither here nor there as a competition.
How about a structure like this:
Jan- Feb : Sigerson & all 3rd level comps ran off. No 3rd level leagues, just maybe pre Christmas blitzes.
March: Start of Club Leagues everywhere. Pre-season IC competition played over 3 weekends. Playing 2-3 40 min games within a weekend at designated Cities. Last weekend is a finals weekend. Last weekend in March is off for absolutely everyone.
April - May: IC All- Ireland Competitions start. 2 competitions, 16 in Sam McGuire, 18 in Tommy Murphy. 2 groups of 8 or 4 groups of 4. If former it’s hard going, play 3 weeks, have a break, play 4 more. If the latter you play every 2nd weekend. Either way you end up with 8 teams for 1/4’s. whoever you meet iTs on a home and away basis year on year, even if you don’t meet for 30 years. GAA decides this, not some dodgy agreement between counties themselves.
Club leagues continue, preferably on a 2 on 1 off rotation.
June: All Ireland’s 1st phase may run into June
June-July: All-Ireland’s completed by middle of July. Only game with possible replay is the final.
Club league finals played towards tail end of July (as happens in a few counties anyway)
July- August: Club championships begin. All County players are available. No back doors. Champions League style if the county prefers, but everything done in a set time frame. Counties fined and thrown out if club All-Ireland if not finished in time.
September: Final stages of club competitions
Oct,Nov, early Dec: All-Ireland club competitions completed.
I’m sure people can poke a few holes in that, but for me it’s quite simple. Players will actually play more “Championship” games within the year in a structures way. It will be a move away from alot of traditions. But fuck tradition when it’s not working.
And just watch the standard raise when club and counties play with some regularity. For me something like this is a no brainier.[/quote]
that’s stupid
As I said Kevin, almost all media exposure the GAA gets is driven by the inter-county scene. You’re proposing an inter-county scene of two and a half months in total with a championship format that means the same teams will contest the latter stages each year and would likely lead to the end of the inter-county system within 15-20 years.
Your proposal really takes no cognisance of reality at all. The GAA’s goal in a competitive sporting market (and that’s what it is) has to be to maximise media exposure. You, on the other hand, are aiming to minimise it.
Oh and I’d get rid of those fucking stupid college competitions that nobody gives a flying shit about.