The Rugby Thread (Part 2)

[flattythehurdler]

They would initially but if the money was there and the promotion, Wales is a rugby nation. Could argue for three franchises only though.

[gilgamboa]

@flattythehurdler

They would initially but if the money was there and the promotion, Wales is a rugby nation. Could argue for three franchises only though

I don’t know where the money will come from is the point I suppose … is there a bigger combined TV value from one comp Vs the two pots of money available now for URC and premiership? Not sure

[flattythehurdler]

It’d have to come from telly and the WRFU .

[gilgamboa]

@flattythehurdler

the WRFU

The WRFU couldn’t afford your pals tiles

[Cheasty]

@BruidheanChaorthainn

For club rugby to really work imo you need British and Irish league.

South Africa, Australia and New Zealand back together plus the top 14.

You could have a world club league then with the top four from the 3 leagues plus maybe two Japan teams
And maybe then 2 next best or something.

That way you could save Welsh and Scottish rugby as they’d love playing the English sides.

You’d bring the whole game under the one season so the best Aussie players could still play with their nation.

Rugby has become so physical that players can only sustain a certain amount of games each year before things start to get properly dangerous. I don’t know what that number is but I’d guess it’s around 26 at most. The top players have to play five times in the Six Nations, then you’ve maybe three international games in November and we’ll say two in the summer on average (it’ll be more next year with the British Lions). So that’s about 15 or 16 times the top players can safely play for their clubs in a year. That’s a problem if you want to build a professional sport because a professional sport has to be built on the club game.

People love international rugby but in most places they aren’t arsed about the club/franchise game.

Scotland and Wales don’t care about their regional teams because they’re manufactured. Australia don’t care. Rugby union can’t compete with NRL, AFL and association football. Argentina is in no man’s land.

English club rugby’s main problem is football. That and the absolute spivs out of MBA courses who have run it for the last three decades.

France’s main selling point in developing it’s club game is the lifestyle. Nobody really cares about the Farmer’s League in football so it has been able to develop.

[gilgamboa]

@Cheasty

Rugby has become so physical that players can only sustain a certain amount of games each year before things start to get properly dangerous. I don’t know what that number is but I’d guess it’s around 26 at most. The top players have to play five times in the Six Nations, then you’ve maybe three international games in November and we’ll say two in the summer on average (it’ll be more next year with the British Lions). So that’s about 15 or 16 times the top players can safely play for their clubs in a year. That’s a problem if you want to build a professional sport because a professional sport has to be built on the club game

The internationals don’t need to play all the club games is one point I doubt many Irish players play 16 club games a year …I’d say the number is even lower for what’s a reasonable number of games…20 maybe

I said this dozens of times on here over years…the Irish system figured that exact point out years ago and kept players in system because you could go to France and get paid a fortune and have a five year shorter career…you can play longer in Ireland for less cash per year but more over the course of career…

France has gotten much better at managing player load now…they have massive squads which helps

[neilld]

Years ago, you’d have had Dupont lining out against Vannes last Friday.

[BruidheanChaorthainn]

You’re wrong about the top 14.

It’s the national sport down the south. You can nearly divisive France north and south with soccer
And rugby.

[gilgamboa]

@neilld

Years ago, you’d have had Dupont lining out against Vannes last Friday.

Yeah he is getting a well deserved month off now

[Cheasty]

@BruidheanChaorthainn

You’re wrong about the top 14.

It’s the national sport down the south. You can nearly divisive France north and south with soccer
And rugby.

I’m not wrong.

Rugby in France traditionally would have had in and around the same level of popularity as in England. There’s obviously a north-south thing with the south, particularly the south west being the heartland, but there’s more a rural-urban thing. Toulouse would be the only major city where rugby is the game.

Lyon and Marseille are association football cities. Rugby is strong however in the smaller cities/larger towns like Perpignan, Clermont Ferrand, Toulon, La Rochelle and the likes.

There are a couple of differences with England though. In England you also have the north-south thing with rugby union football being more popular from the midlands and further south. But what exists in England that doesn’t exist in France is the class thing in rugby. English rugby portrays a particular idea of Englishness that a lot of people in England find it hard to get behind. French rugby portrays an idea of Frenchness that is very attractive right across France. I was intrigued how many people were looking at club rugby on the telly in French bars. I think the idea of Frenchness French rugby taps into is quite similar to the idea of Irishness tapped into by hurling in this country.

France then doesn’t have the mass attendance association football league that England has. It’s a football country but football in France is driven by the international team, not the Farmer’s league. You can’t overstate how rugby union football in Britain is hobbled by association football. Nobody associates Leicester the city with Leicester Tigers any more, it’s Leicester City. South Wales is becoming a football area, Cardiff City and Swansea City dilute the market for URC rugby attendances hugely. Scotland is a basket case because of the peculiarities of their regional sides and the class thing. Scottish rugby people and Scottish football people are like different species of humans altogether. Club/regional rugby in the UK just can’t create its own niche like it needs to. If the people who ran English club rugby had anything about them they’d have a live game on BBC2 every Friday night and Saturday lunchtime. Instead they’re stuck in a twilight zone on whatever pay channel shows it.

France has exploited the gap in the market which exists there for a world class sports league attracting the world’s best players, with real local and regional pride, on a cross class, multi-racial basis. While Paris isn’t a rugby hotbed, rugby as far as I can see attracts quite a lot of interest in Paris and in every corner of France now because the Top Quatorze has become the league. It’s format has been helped by history because unlike in England the champions have always been decided in a final.

[BruidheanChaorthainn]

Honestly they just like rugby more than anything else down south.

It’s like hurling down there.

[gilgamboa]

I’d agree with about 90%of that…cracking post

[Cheasty]

@gilgamboa

I’d agree with about 90%of that…cracking post

What 10% do you disagree with, out of interest?

Rugby in Australia is really fucked and has a far worse case of “being squeezed out” by other sports than even in Britain. Traditionally the rugby heartlands were the private school educated middle and upper classes of Sydney and Brisbane. They’re now turning to AFL in a big way and Sydney playing Brisbane in the Grand Final this weekend seems like a sort of watershed, a death knell for rugby union football in Australia.

The AFL and NRL dominate the domestic Australian sports scene. Association football is making inroads because it’s the world game, then there’s cricket as a summer pastime. There isn’t room for rugby union football any more. It doesn’t have a proper league, it has a few franchises who are thrown to the wolves against the New Zealand teams in a neutered Super 12. Nobody wants to watch that. The crowds who used to attend the Waratahs now go to the SCG to watch the Swans. The beatings the Cadbury Wallabies are suffering are getting worse and worse.

[gilgamboa]

@Cheasty

What 10% do you disagree with, out of interest?

Wouldn’t feel the clash thing is as big am issue ok England as you say

I think the game in France is (or could be) far more overshadowed by the soccer team UK…Lyon is a good example…a brilliant rugby club with 20% of the attendanee of the soccer club …the league markets itself well and has live gamesi sat sun incl a redone type show fta on Saturday

Also not sure Scotland is a basket case…they have an overall shite structure but the clubs they have are half decent

And the wallabies are coming…coming strong

[flattythehurdler]

Why though? They should have as much money as the IRFU?

[gilgamboa]

@flattythehurdler

Why though? They should have as much money as the IRFU?

Dozens of small reasons main one though is they still have massive debt on millennium stadium…and the regions have fuck all cash coming in to meet outgoings.witu repayment of COVID parked debt needed

[flattythehurdler]

I just had a read through the wru releases.
They reckon they’re 20m in debt.
There’s a funding gap of 30 million looming over the next 5 years if they don’t increase their revenue, but it doesn’t look insurmountable.
It’s hard to square with the millennium stadium build being less than half the cost of the Aviva, but is the apparent wealth gap a function of the provinces being better revenue generators than the Welsh sides?

[Cheasty]

In England it’s not so much that it’s a clash, it’s that the presence of football and the siloing away on Da Zone or Dynamite Sports or whatever means the potential interest pool for rugby is much smaller. Football stops casual interest in club rugby because it itself hoovers up so much casual interest. You’re either interested in English club rugby or you’re not but there aren’t many floaters.

The impression I get is casual interest in French club rugby is bigger. Irish rugby’s strong point is the huge casual interest it has generated. That will probably increase given association football is a shambles and the GAA seems determined to push away every floater it can through its Year Zero deranged culture war purity fever dream fantasy kamikaze mission.

[gilgamboa]

@flattythehurdler

I just had a read through the wru releases.
They reckon they’re 20m in debt.
There’s a funding gap of 30 million looming over the next 5 years if they don’t increase their revenue, but it doesn’t look insurmountable.
It’s hard to square with the millennium stadium build being less than half the cost of the Aviva, but is the apparent wealth gap a function of the provinces being better revenue generators than the Welsh sides?

Ya 20m in debt without the same revenue stream…IRFU owe fuck all and the provinces have a revenue stream through decent provisional attendances (relative to Welsh ) and the international game plus all the attendant merchandising and sponsorship etc

Wealth gap a major factor too yeah

[Perez2017]

I havent met 1 person who has mentioned the return of the URC. Decent competition mind but it’s Europe that captures the imagination of the casual fan. Munster couldn’t sell out a home quarter and semi in the URC just gone.