It was introduced to get inflation down.
I know all that. It doesn’t change a thing I said. Labour are dead in the water with this manifesto. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong.
Mass unemployment was one of the specific goals of monetarism
The natural follow up comment there would be that if a party is “dead in the water” with a manifesto which proposes moderate European social democracy, there is something wrong with the fundamentals in British democracy
I think that’s undeniably the case
Labour’s 2017 manifesto did actually precipitate a significant rise in support for them though
ein volk, ein reich, ein union!
The challenge for Labour right now - is to win the election to have some platform to implement change.
They need to work within the political system/biases/culture that exist in Uk - dysfunctional though they may be.
It will be intriguing to see if this approach works. My sense though is that it’s a radical manifesto driven by “believers” who haven’t considered whether the broad-based electorate they are trying to win over are pre-disposed to such ideas in big enough numbers to deliver a majority
There is a bang of the 1983 manifesto off the current one. The 1983 manifesto was described as the longest suicide note in history by Labour MP Gerald Kaufman.
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Matters of perception are difficult when the media is a propaganda machine against you
That isn’t perception, that’s fact, as Loughborough University proved
Democracy doesn’t just refer to the electoral system, it’s a whole eco-system including education and media which requires society to be responsible and to think long term
The Anglo-American model specifically mitigates against that
Northern Europe has social democracy and is amenable to social democracy because it has a superior democratic eco-system
It isn’t perfect, but it’s better than the Anglo-American model and has consistently delivered better outcomes for its peoples
Labour in run by student union type activists. I don’t think they care about the hiding they are going to get. You need to be on the middle ground to get elected because that’s where the majority of the people are. That’s what Blair did building on the reconstruction begun by Kinnock and John Smith. When you are in power you can do things.
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That’s a lovely cliche and all, but for it to be true, all Northern European social democracies and the European Union would have to be run by “student union type activists”
They aren’t - they’re run mostly by sensible, moderate social democratic politicians, which is what Labour want in Britain
Resorting to hackneyed cliches is something people do when they don’t have an argument about the actual politics
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So you’re saying the system is against this type of manifesto being successful in gaining majority electoral support but that the best plan is to launch such a manifesto anyway.
Better to fail, bemoan the system than actually attain and wield power to change the system?
Interesting political strategy
It’s highly likely that the centre is different politically in Europe than it is in the UK. Maybe Labour as currently formulated are better suited to running in the German elections?
Correct. If you want to see why it doesn’t work, look at the CIÉ companies. There are workers on every single Board, but in order to actually get anything done they have subcommittees in place they have to leave them off. You cannot have rational discussion on the future of companies with the attitude of the likes of the NBRU.
I still favour workers representation, but it comes from a place of extreme nativity and real world experience to constantly go on about the Continent. Culture matters.
If you don’t attempt change you’ll never get change
What you are saying is that no change should ever be attempted
If your view was taken to its logical endpoint, there would be no Green Party or no party which didn’t conform to neo-liberal orthodoxy
It sums up the attitude which got Britian to this state
Labour got 41% last time, its biggest share and its largest absolute vote by a long way since 1997
One problem with this is that the average brit is considerably thicker than the average European.
The likes of rail. We don’t have to tender to the market within the EU as our system is so small.
There is a huge misconception out there about the Continent. There is actually some structures that reflect the UK’s and some that are State owned. Sweden for example, has some private operators. Not mentioned by those who constantly go on about how great the Scandinavians are is it?
I am not saying that at all. Don’t put words in my mouth.
I think change should be attempted if it benefits most but the nature of democracies is that it needs to be evolutionary change i.e. you have to bring the electorate with you. That is why big centrist parties tend to remain in power, they reflect the chunk of voters. I appreciate that is infuriating to those who want to rip the system apart but that’s the gig.
It is to my mind, far better to effect incremental change in-power than to sit outside the corridors of power with a radical plan that is never put into action.
Finally - Labour lost the last election mate. In a system like the UK, there are winners who get to go into government and there are losers that pat themselves on the back. The only criteria for this election is who leads the next government.
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That goes back to what I said about the democratic eco-system
The Anglo-American get rich quick, short term thinking, failed model is hardwired into much of British society because its a self-reinforcing vicious circle
I find it very interesting that so many people moan about parties which want to change that and continue to display a spectacular lack of ideas and vision, which will just continue the same failed road
It’s just TINA - except there has to be an alternative, or the consequences for societies will be severe in a range of ways
If the sort of “thinking” on display here had been displayed throughout history, there never would have been any progress
Britain certainly wouldn’t have a National Health Service
But the continent doesn’t even all have a NHS and it can work very well. That doesn’t mean less public intervention, regulation or services, but not necessarily the NHS. Being dogmatically wedded to a system shows the same closed minded approach that you are criticising others for. That said, you should try to work with what you have first to make improvements there.
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Labour implemented radical change in 1945 and that change forms the backbone of what remains of the social safety net in Britain today, highly eroded as it has been
Britain’s national debt then was exponentially higher than it is now, so excuses were far more plausible then - they were wrong then too
Excuses to not change will always be found - that’s the human condition
But sometimes serious change is necessary - and this is one of those times on every level - that’s been abundantly clear for well over a decade
I don’t see anything here except excuses as to why there should be serious change
That’s the road to long term stagnation, decline, and who knows what, but it’s unlikely to be good
There are lads here who like to showehorn turgid references to student unions into their posts for some reason - yet their thinking is considerably below that of student unions