Abortion Referendum Thread


#2943

How do you prove it’s a hard case? Do we have trials or hearings to determine?

3 months is a decent deadline and gives the women in these situations ample time to get the foetus aborted.


#2944

The proposed legislation is for 12 weeks not 4 months


#2945

My understanding is that after a citizens assembly and a Dail committee this was the recommendation weighing up all the factors involved. While there were extremists from either side involved in both of those forums the majority (including TD’s/Senators) were probably somewhere in the middle.

In short, they tried to make a measured recommendation rather than an ideological/moral one. It is to be commended that they published recommended legislation too rather than just fudging it.

There is nothing to guarantee this legislation would be passed in the case of repeal - for example FF look very shaky on the whole issue and the gov depends upon them. I think it’s reasonable to say that if anything it would be reduced in scope rather than extended.

In addition, there is nothing that would change future governments, amending that legislation as per democratic majority.

The 8th amendment is bad law. It was inserted at a different time in Ireland. It is blunt, unwieldy, divisive and ultimately doesn’t really resolve the problem it was set up to solve while causing many others, often to the detriment of women’s health.

Repeal and trust our democratic system.


#2946

You’re complaining about other’s introducing straw man arguments (which are highly relevant btw as the debate is all about imposing religious morality on others, like Mickey Harte trying to impose his warped morality on people in another jurisdiction)… and yet you keep introducing abortion at 4 months, which is not being proposed.

The debate is about removing a ridiculous amendment to the constitution that equates the right to life of a zygote/embryo/fetus to it’s mother, a religious (and specifically RC) view that has no place in any modern society. Like a lot of Catholic teaching, it’s an absurd concept.


#2947

Not one person will answer it, and i answered every question. What a debate.


#2948

I answered mate, still awaiting clarification on your follow-up


#2949

Oh kay. A unborn child, healthy, no risk to the mother, three months in (as none of ye are willing to answer four months) should his abortion be allowed?


#2950

Because it isn’t relevant, elective abortion at 4 months is not being proposed. It’s like asking will the Dublin football team win the hurling AI.

I have a serious question for you. I accept your personal morality on this, I’m sure it’s genuinely felt. However, what gives you the right to extend that morality to others? If a 19 year old girl has an unwanted pregnancy and wants to terminate as soon as she finds out, what gives you or anyone else for that matter the right to deny her that choice? It’s her decision to go through a full term pregnancy and deliver a child, and nobody else.


#2951

Yes. You do too if you want to cater for rape victims.


#2952

Im not a practicing catholic. So theres argument one gone. Secondly i dont consider a baby a zygote.


#2953

But then there would be a risk to the mother?? At least you are honest. I dont agree with you. I dont trust the legislature (thats why i keep on referencing clare daly) but each to their own


#2954

I dont agree with it, but yes.

And it already happens anyway, our constitution allows for it to happen up to 24 weeks. the proposed legislation means that they can complete abort here with better procedures and follow up care rather than with no follow up care, or worse, in secret at home with no medical supervision.


#2955

I’m not arguing there would be a risk to the mother required up to 12 weeks/3 months.


#2956

A zygote is the first stage of a baby’s development, it doesn’t matter what you consider, that’s just basic biology. The constitution makes no distinction between any stage of a pregnancy. Are you OK with aborting zygotes then?

The “I’m not a practicing Catholic” or “This isn’t a religious argument” is frankly bullshit. Where do you think your morality comes from? Why is it that only Ireland of civilized countries has such restrictive anti-woman laws? Because Irish people were under the spell of the RC church for many generations.


#2957

I’ll answer it, saying 12 weeks instead of 4 months and saying “foetus” instead of baby.

In my view it is massively distasteful and very uncomfortable. However it needs to be placed in the context of the alternatives: exporting the problem to the UK to be “resolved” there or alternatively forcing women who have no wish to be pregnant to carry to full-term. Are you comfortable with both of those?

The first, exporting to UK, doesn’t address any of your moral concerns for the foetus. It just puts it out of your gaze. You can remain unperturbed in your valley of the squinting windows but you haven’t addressed your stated fear.

The second, although addressing your concern, brings all sort of moral quandaries of its own. You are forcing a women to have a baby against her will. What happens to that baby? Are you taking responsibility for it? Should she? Should the sentence you’ve imposed on her extend from 6 months to 18 years? Are you thinking “well it’s her own fault, she got herself into it”. Have you listened to how you sound?

There is no black and white here. It’s all shades of pretty shitty grey. One thing that pops up from all the stories is that this is a life-defining event for all who go through it, or don’t. I trust the women I know if they were put in that situation too. I haven’t seen any evidence why I shouldn’t trust others.

On that basis, I endorse the proposals in the absence of any convincing real-world (not pulpit led) argument to the contrary.


#2958

In my opinion no. I don’t really think Repealing the 8th, with the current proposed legislation really makes that much more likely to happen.

I just don’t see how this could work. Who would decide what’s reasonable? Presumably a judge & jury given that there would be a determination being made on the constitutional rights of the “unborn”, with representation for the unborn needed. The woman would therefore have to be cross-examined by the Counsel for the unborn. Most rape victims don’t want their cases to even go to trial because it’s so traumatic (supposedly anyway, obviously I don’t know that for sure). And when has a rape trial ever been done and dusted within 9 months? Any abortion ever performed under such a regime would be extremely late term. And how would that prejudice any future criminal trial for the rape allegation?

Clare Daly is a fucking gowl and if she fucks this up for everyone I’ll never forgive her and there’s plenty of women feel the same. I think the like of her can be controlled. Ireland is essentially a very conservative country, a very Catholic country and highly aware of life within the womb. The draft legislation probably wont even pass because the government are relying on FF, so the final legislation will probably be more conservative again.

Overall @maroonandwhite some of the better contributions from pro-lifers on this board.


#2959

She can put it up for adoption?


#2960

honest question, do you know how many children were adopted in Ireland last year?

Also, you know you cannot put a child up for adoption if married.


#2961

Some excellent arguments from yourself, blake, one or two more posts. Others have asked me about Canadian law and referenced mickey harte repeatedly. So you dont have all the moral high ground.


#2962

I have no idea how many.

I did not know that second part. Why is that?