How do you prove itâs a hard case? Do we have trials or hearings to determine?
3 months is a decent deadline and gives the women in these situations ample time to get the foetus aborted.
The proposed legislation is for 12 weeks not 4 months
My understanding is that after a citizens assembly and a Dail committee this was the recommendation weighing up all the factors involved. While there were extremists from either side involved in both of those forums the majority (including TDâs/Senators) were probably somewhere in the middle.
In short, they tried to make a measured recommendation rather than an ideological/moral one. It is to be commended that they published recommended legislation too rather than just fudging it.
There is nothing to guarantee this legislation would be passed in the case of repeal - for example FF look very shaky on the whole issue and the gov depends upon them. I think itâs reasonable to say that if anything it would be reduced in scope rather than extended.
In addition, there is nothing that would change future governments, amending that legislation as per democratic majority.
The 8th amendment is bad law. It was inserted at a different time in Ireland. It is blunt, unwieldy, divisive and ultimately doesnât really resolve the problem it was set up to solve while causing many others, often to the detriment of womenâs health.
Repeal and trust our democratic system.
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Youâre complaining about otherâs introducing straw man arguments (which are highly relevant btw as the debate is all about imposing religious morality on others, like Mickey Harte trying to impose his warped morality on people in another jurisdiction)⌠and yet you keep introducing abortion at 4 months, which is not being proposed.
The debate is about removing a ridiculous amendment to the constitution that equates the right to life of a zygote/embryo/fetus to itâs mother, a religious (and specifically RC) view that has no place in any modern society. Like a lot of Catholic teaching, itâs an absurd concept.
Not one person will answer it, and i answered every question. What a debate.
I answered mate, still awaiting clarification on your follow-up
Oh kay. A unborn child, healthy, no risk to the mother, three months in (as none of ye are willing to answer four months) should his abortion be allowed?
Because it isnât relevant, elective abortion at 4 months is not being proposed. Itâs like asking will the Dublin football team win the hurling AI.
I have a serious question for you. I accept your personal morality on this, Iâm sure itâs genuinely felt. However, what gives you the right to extend that morality to others? If a 19 year old girl has an unwanted pregnancy and wants to terminate as soon as she finds out, what gives you or anyone else for that matter the right to deny her that choice? Itâs her decision to go through a full term pregnancy and deliver a child, and nobody else.
Yes. You do too if you want to cater for rape victims.
Im not a practicing catholic. So theres argument one gone. Secondly i dont consider a baby a zygote.
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But then there would be a risk to the mother?? At least you are honest. I dont agree with you. I dont trust the legislature (thats why i keep on referencing clare daly) but each to their own
I dont agree with it, but yes.
And it already happens anyway, our constitution allows for it to happen up to 24 weeks. the proposed legislation means that they can complete abort here with better procedures and follow up care rather than with no follow up care, or worse, in secret at home with no medical supervision.
Iâm not arguing there would be a risk to the mother required up to 12 weeks/3 months.
A zygote is the first stage of a babyâs development, it doesnât matter what you consider, thatâs just basic biology. The constitution makes no distinction between any stage of a pregnancy. Are you OK with aborting zygotes then?
The âIâm not a practicing Catholicâ or âThis isnât a religious argumentâ is frankly bullshit. Where do you think your morality comes from? Why is it that only Ireland of civilized countries has such restrictive anti-woman laws? Because Irish people were under the spell of the RC church for many generations.
Iâll answer it, saying 12 weeks instead of 4 months and saying âfoetusâ instead of baby.
In my view it is massively distasteful and very uncomfortable. However it needs to be placed in the context of the alternatives: exporting the problem to the UK to be âresolvedâ there or alternatively forcing women who have no wish to be pregnant to carry to full-term. Are you comfortable with both of those?
The first, exporting to UK, doesnât address any of your moral concerns for the foetus. It just puts it out of your gaze. You can remain unperturbed in your valley of the squinting windows but you havenât addressed your stated fear.
The second, although addressing your concern, brings all sort of moral quandaries of its own. You are forcing a women to have a baby against her will. What happens to that baby? Are you taking responsibility for it? Should she? Should the sentence youâve imposed on her extend from 6 months to 18 years? Are you thinking âwell itâs her own fault, she got herself into itâ. Have you listened to how you sound?
There is no black and white here. Itâs all shades of pretty shitty grey. One thing that pops up from all the stories is that this is a life-defining event for all who go through it, or donât. I trust the women I know if they were put in that situation too. I havenât seen any evidence why I shouldnât trust others.
On that basis, I endorse the proposals in the absence of any convincing real-world (not pulpit led) argument to the contrary.
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In my opinion no. I donât really think Repealing the 8th, with the current proposed legislation really makes that much more likely to happen.
I just donât see how this could work. Who would decide whatâs reasonable? Presumably a judge & jury given that there would be a determination being made on the constitutional rights of the âunbornâ, with representation for the unborn needed. The woman would therefore have to be cross-examined by the Counsel for the unborn. Most rape victims donât want their cases to even go to trial because itâs so traumatic (supposedly anyway, obviously I donât know that for sure). And when has a rape trial ever been done and dusted within 9 months? Any abortion ever performed under such a regime would be extremely late term. And how would that prejudice any future criminal trial for the rape allegation?
Clare Daly is a fucking gowl and if she fucks this up for everyone Iâll never forgive her and thereâs plenty of women feel the same. I think the like of her can be controlled. Ireland is essentially a very conservative country, a very Catholic country and highly aware of life within the womb. The draft legislation probably wont even pass because the government are relying on FF, so the final legislation will probably be more conservative again.
Overall @maroonandwhite some of the better contributions from pro-lifers on this board.
She can put it up for adoption?
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honest question, do you know how many children were adopted in Ireland last year?
Also, you know you cannot put a child up for adoption if married.
Some excellent arguments from yourself, blake, one or two more posts. Others have asked me about Canadian law and referenced mickey harte repeatedly. So you dont have all the moral high ground.
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I have no idea how many.
I did not know that second part. Why is that?