How are Ellis and Cooper from practically nowhere? The two of them were regulars in key positions for Cork at underage and intermediate level along with both key players at Fitzgibbon level. Pretty sure both were involved in Cork senior panels under Dennis Walsh as well
They havenāt been seen in years, Ellis was written off by Turenne as an intermediate hurler, Cooper was on the panel a few years ago and didnāt impress and was discarded, Harnedy didnāt play for Cork at underage. Iād call that from nowhere, itās not like these were much heralded players.
Cooper played for Cork under Denis Walsh. Ellis played for the U-21s for two years, maybe more. Harnedy starred for UCC for years. Not out of nowhere.
Ah here, so ladd that playrf pretty much every level for their county aside from senior championship and donāt make the grade straight away are from nowhere? Come out of it
And was dropped having not impressed and was hardly expected to be seen again.
And you called him a junior hurler.
But never at underage level and yet became an all star.
The point is, you didnāt expect these three to be decent intercounty players two years ago, and you canāt know everything thatās in the county or how some player thatās been unimpressive up til now might improve. Ye might end up with an another all star that couldnāt make the 21s team etc.
Another aspect of the game that canāt be overlooked is the Ger Loughnane factor. I think it is fair to say that he tipped the balance in Tipperaryās favour and had them Cork lads rattled within an inch of their lives
Cooper was dropped because of a horrible injury, that was the only reason. Before that he was looking good as an inter-county hurler and was one of the lads Denis Walsh should have given more game time to.
Ellis Iāll gladly say I didnāt rate, he has done far better than I - or anyone - would have expected. Does this mean he came out of nowhere? No, he started underage and played for CIT for years.
People were talking about calling Harnedy up even when Walsh was in charge - he got over-looked for whatever reason, but he was UCCās go to go guy for years. Again not out of nowhere.
[QUOTE=āglasagusban, post: 1002322, member: 1533ā]
The point is, you didnāt expect these three to be decent intercounty players two years ago [/QUOTE]
This is incorrect - I didnāt think Ellis would make it.
I have half a feeling Harnedy trained for a bit under Walsh as well, donāt remember though.
[QUOTE=āglasagusban, post: 1002322, member: 1533ā]And was dropped having not impressed and was hardly expected to be seen again.
And you called him a junior hurler.
But never at underage level and yet became an all star.
The point is, you didnāt expect these three to be decent intercounty players two years ago, and you canāt know everything thatās in the county or how some player thatās been unimpressive up til now might improve. Ye might end up with an another all star that couldnāt make the 21s team etc.[/QUOTE]
What exactly did Cooper do when the chips were down in any game? That Cork team are paper thin, they have given everything for the last 2/3 years with just a worthless trophy to show for it. The clubs have been tapped out and players who could have made it have been fast tracked by JBM in the hope they would play a part but it has ruined some of them. They wonāt have any new players of merchantable quality for another 2 or 3 years whereas Clare,Limerick,Tipp and Waterford all have a healthy amount of quality hurlers coming through. The same with Wexford/Kilkenny/Laois/Dublin. Cork will just be left behind and no amount of positive attitudes and lenient refereeing can sway it for them.
I have been waiting for this capitulation since the Munster semi last year, the quality of players was just not enough to equate to the performances they had.
[QUOTE=āBad Winner, post: 1002330, member: 2406ā]What exactly did Cooper do when the chips were down in any game? That Cork team are paper thin, they have given everything for the last 2/3 years with just a worthless trophy to show for it. The clubs have been tapped out and players who could have made it have been fast tracked by JBM in the hope they would play a part but it has ruined some of them. They wonāt have any new players of merchantable quality for another 2 or 3 years whereas Clare,Limerick,Tipp and Waterford all have a healthy amount of quality hurlers coming through. The same with Wexford/Kilkenny/Laois/Dublin. Cork will just be left behind and no amount of positive attitudes and lenient refereeing can sway it for them.
I have been waiting for this capitulation since the Munster semi last year, the quality of players was just not enough to equate to the performances they had.[/QUOTE]
Average age of the team is still very young. Yesterday was a poor performance - the forwards missed chances that on another day you expect them to score. Two mistakes led to first goal.
Internet sports forums tend to overplay wins ands losses in terms of what that means and trends going forward. The record of Munster champions in semi finals is very poor. One of Tipperary or Kilkenny has to lose the final and when that happens the obituaries will be written for one of those teams who are quite a bit older than Cork. Obituaries were written for Kilkenny last year too.
Yesterday was a bad blow for Cork, no doubt about it and there is bitter disappointment at the performance more than the result. But unless you are Kilkenny winning an All Ireland without going through qualifiers seems now to be the exception. Provincial winners donāt have the luxury of an off day and coming back in again for another bite.
If you played that game again next week nobody here would put their weeks wages on Tipp winning it either in spite of what they write.
I had Tipp to win by 5. I Was disappointed to get it wrong to be honest.
[QUOTE=āTheUlteriorMotive, post: 1002344, member: 2272ā]
If you played that game again next week nobody here would put their weeks wages on Tipp winning it either in spite of what they write.[/QUOTE]
Tipperary were always going to win yesterday because they are better than Cork. If the match was played again next week they would win again because they would still be better.
Cork seriously underestimated the opposition and got what they deserved.
Tipperary won pulling up with only 3 forwards playing anywhere near the required level.
[QUOTE=āTheUlteriorMotive, post: 1002344, member: 2272ā]Average age of the team is still very young. Yesterday was a poor performance - the forwards missed chances that on another day you expect them to score. Two mistakes led to first goal.
Internet sports forums tend to overplay wins ands losses in terms of what that means and trends going forward. The record of Munster champions in semi finals is very poor. One of Tipperary or Kilkenny has to lose the final and when that happens the obituaries will be written for one of those teams who are quite a bit older than Cork. Obituaries were written for Kilkenny last year too.
Yesterday was a bad blow for Cork, no doubt about it and there is bitter disappointment at the performance more than the result. But unless you are Kilkenny winning an All Ireland without going through qualifiers seems now to be the exception. Provincial winners donāt have the luxury of an off day and coming back in again for another bite.
If you played that game again next week nobody here would put their weeks wages on Tipp winning it either in spite of what they write.[/QUOTE]
I donāt think it matters what age they are to be honest, you have 4-5 starters that simply arenāt good enough. You had the majority of the possession in both halvesā¦
Youāre forwards are simply not good enough as a collective unit at the top level, you saw that the day Horgan misfired. 2 of them scored from play v Clare etc on a day you were dominant. Same v Waterford the first day. It looked like Cadogan was a find and maybe heās struggling with form but he now looks like a player who when he doesnāt get the yard and ball to hand will struggle. Cronin??? He is supposed to be the leader, have a look at what Bonnar Maher did for Tipp, what TJ Reid does for KK, what John Conlon did for Clare v Wex with 2 markersā¦
And tradition didnāt help them either like you insisted on claiming it would either.
From last year, Walsh was the big find in MF. His hurling let him down, choice to be madeā¦
Defenseā¦Cahalane is no better the OSullivan, in fact OSullivans composure may have him ahead. no full back. Ellis played well but the task has been greatly simplified for him. Again,No full back, Christopher Joyce ?
The puck out pressure was farcical beyond belief.
ā¦ I do feel sorry for JBM as heās made them into something they now struggle with - possible contenders. They wont win an AI with these players. You need 4-5 better ones on the first 15, and 3-4 more on the bench. It doesnāt matter what age the current ones are.
[QUOTE=āMullach Ide, post: 1002349, member: 141ā]Tipperary were always going to win yesterday because they are better than Cork. If the match was played again next week they would win again because they would still be better. Cork seriously underestimated the opposition and got what they deserved.
Tipperary won pulling up with only 3 forwards playing anywhere near the required level.[/QUOTE]
I hope you won ā¬10k betting on that sure thing.
If Tipp lose to Kilkenny is their season a wash out - it will mean they have shat the course in two finals this year against Kilkenny. Will they recover from that or is the final a sure thing too.
[QUOTE=āKid Chocolate, post: 1002350, member: 553ā]I donāt think it matters what age they are to be honest, you have 4-5 starters that simply arenāt good enough. You had the majority of the possession in both halvesā¦
Youāre forwards are simply not good enough as a collective unit at the top level, you saw that the day Horgan misfired. 2 of them scored from play v Clare etc on a day you were dominant. Same v Waterford the first day. It looked like Cadogan was a find and maybe heās struggling with form but he now looks like a player who when he doesnāt get the yard and ball to hand will struggle. Cronin??? He is supposed to be the leader, have a look at what Bonnar Maher did for Tipp, what TJ Reid does for KK, what John Conlon did for Clare v Wex with 2 markersā¦
And tradition didnāt help them either like you insisted on claiming it would either.
From last year, Walsh was the big find in MF. His hurling let him down, choice to be madeā¦
Defenseā¦Cahalane is no better the OSullivan, in fact OSullivans composure may have him ahead. no full back. Ellis played well but the task has been greatly simplified for him. No full back, Christopher Joyce ?
The puck out pressure was farcical beyond belief.
ā¦ I do feel sorry for JBM as heās made them into something they now struggle with - possible contenders. They wont win an AI with these players. You need 4-5 better ones on the first 15, and 3-4 more on the bench. It doesnāt matter what age the current ones are.[/QUOTE]
Every team needs 4-5 better players and 3-4 more on the bench. Cork forward line didnāt turn up yesterday. 1-11 was appalling and nobody saw it coming. Balls dropped all over the pitch. Silly wides.
The puck out strategy is being over stated at least for first half where the ball often went to a corner back and he just hit it long. In second half after the goal the Cork heads dropped and they were dominated and puck out strategy was a big part of that.
If Tipp lose the final the analysis will focus on the fact that they are one dimensional and go long and high to the full forward line. Yes Cork need a full back who has a physical presence. KK have that so we will see.
The dual players experiment hasnāt really worked - Walsh played himself into form with the games in a row at the start of the championship.
Cork played same team for last 3 games. Cody seems to be the only manager who picks each team based on form as form changes over a summer. It is hard for a manager to drop somebody from a winning team but I guess that is what makes Cody great in that he is prepared to do that.
[QUOTE=āTheUlteriorMotive, post: 1002351, member: 2272ā]I hope you won ā¬10k betting on that sure thing.
If Tipp lose to Kilkenny is their season a wash out - it will mean they have shat the course in two finals this year against Kilkenny. Will they recover from that or is the final a sure thing too.[/QUOTE]
Itās still a bit raw for you obviously.
At least James Owens wonāt be reffing the final, funny enough he rode Tipperary in the league final as well.
Kilkenny are 4-6 to win the final, losing to an odds on favourite is not shitting the course, Cork did that yesterday.
[QUOTE=āTheUlteriorMotive, post: 1002353, member: 2272ā]Every team needs 4-5 better players and 3-4 more on the bench. Cork forward line didnāt turn up yesterday. 1-11 was appalling and nobody saw it coming. Balls dropped all over the pitch. Silly wides.
The puck out strategy is being over stated at least for first half where the ball often went to a corner back and he just hit it long. In second half after the goal the Cork heads dropped and they were dominated and puck out strategy was a big part of that.
If Tipp lose the final the analysis will focus on the fact that they are one dimensional and go long and high to the full forward line. Yes Cork need a full back who has a physical presence. KK have that so we will see.
The dual players experiment hasnāt really worked - Walsh played himself into form with the games in a row at the start of the championship.
Cork played same team for last 3 games. Cody seems to be the only manager who picks each team based on form as form changes over a summer. It is hard for a manager to drop somebody from a winning team but I guess that is what makes Cody great in that he is prepared to do that.[/QUOTE]
The puck out strategy is not over stated, he was hitting HBs and MF players with ease, not just CBs.
Not every team needs 4-5 better starters, that just ridiculous.
Thatās not the first time the Cork forward line didnāt turn up, in fact it frequently happens and despite your continue insistence, many on here did predict what would happen
Re Tipp, they are in the AI final, won one 3 year ago, won a minor 2 years ago, and will in all likelihood win next years u21ā¦iād say theyāll be ok
Most good managers bring in form players, esp forwards, numerous examples of that this year alone.
Donāt know what point your trying to make there.
[QUOTE=āMullach Ide, post: 1002354, member: 141ā]Itās still a bit raw for you obviously.
At least James Owens wonāt be reffing the final, funny enough he rode Tipperary in the league final as well.
Kilkenny are 4-6 to win the final, losing to an odds on favourite is not shitting the course, Cork did that yesterday.[/QUOTE]
Raw alright. I donāt think ref rode Tipp - he seemed to play advantage for both teams a lot but a free is all the advantage you need in hurling.
If you lose two finals in a year to Kilkenny is that the end of the road for a lot of these players?
Not true, although it was the tactic yesterday mainly due to Callanans height advantage over Shane OāNeill.