[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 1002357, member: 2272â]Raw alright. I donât think ref rode Tipp - he seemed to play advantage for both teams a lot but a free is all the advantage you need in hurling.
If you lose two finals in a year to Kilkenny is that the end of the road for a lot of these players?[/QUOTE]
Which players? Other than Corbett and Gleeson the rest of the starting 15 are all under 30. A lot of them only coming into their prime hurling years.
McGrath, Kelly, Woodlock, Stapleton, Curran, Bergin - late 20s, early 30s?
average age of Tipp panel must be close to 30. Not old but trend seems to be hard to commit to it past 27/28 with work and family life. An All Ireland Final is often a nice bookend to a career.
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 1002380, member: 2272â]McGrath, Kelly, Woodlock, Stapleton, Curran, Bergin - late 20s, early 30s?
average age of Tipp panel must be close to 30. Not old but trend seems to be hard to commit to it past 27/28 with work and family life. An All Ireland Final is often a nice bookend to a career.[/QUOTE]
Iâll give you this at least youâre still here instead of hiding like that bluffer Kev, but youâre coming out with some scutter now. Might be best sleep it off.
I did a bit of thinking on the link between under age success and senior success a couple of years ago and concluded that no team had won a senior All Ireland without having a link to a successful minor or under 21 team. For Big 3 counties the link had to be to an All Ireland winning team and for the other counties it had to be a provincial championship winning team. There was no precedent in the post war era for a team winning a senior All Ireland that fell outside of these parameters. Cork very very nearly upstaged that theory last year, but it is now back on a solid footing.
The point being that unless Cork start winning minor and Under 21 All Ireland again they can forget about winning senior All Irelands.
Maybe.
My contention is still that on a given day any of KK, Tipp, Cork, Limerick, Clare can beat each other and no team is miles out in front. Bookies odds on any games between them would confirm that.
If Tipp donât win the final, then has this year been a disaster for them?
[QUOTE=âFagan ODowd, post: 1002394, member: 706â]I did a bit of thinking on the link between under age success and senior success a couple of years ago and concluded that no team had won a senior All Ireland without having a link to a successful minor or under 21 team. For Big 3 counties the link had to be to an All Ireland winning team and for the other counties it had to be a provincial championship winning team. There was no precedent in the post war era for a team winning a senior All Ireland that fell outside of these parameters. Cork very very nearly upstaged that theory last year, but it is now back on a solid footing.
The point being that unless Cork start winning minor and Under 21 All Ireland again they can forget about winning senior All Irelands.[/QUOTE]
I agree 100%. Players simply get used to winning and performing under pressure.
Clare were an exception in '95, but if you accept our issues were mental and the underage group from 92-95 should have won a munster u21 (beaten in '92 and '94 by Waterford and ceded '95 due to senior success)âŚand did win a minor in '89âŚthere is almost a direct correlation.
and people also think Waterford came from nowhere in '98, they did in their holes, those players had beaten Clare players in '92 and '94 u21 finals and were sick of watching players they knew they had bettered winning AIS
Galway have been hugely successful under age and havenât translated it.
In sample size of five or six counties it is a major outlier
theory has some merit as you do need to add players each year but it is arguable the Colleges also fulfil this role as well to an extent
You need structures to transition minors to 21s and to seniors. The playing demands on the top young hurlers are crazy as they have a 12 month season now so you will inevitably see burn out and shorter careers.
[QUOTE=âFagan ODowd, post: 1002394, member: 706â]I did a bit of thinking on the link between under age success and senior success a couple of years ago and concluded that no team had won a senior All Ireland without having a link to a successful minor or under 21 team. For Big 3 counties the link had to be to an All Ireland winning team and for the other counties it had to be a provincial championship winning team. There was no precedent in the post war era for a team winning a senior All Ireland that fell outside of these parameters. Cork very very nearly upstaged that theory last year, but it is now back on a solid footing.
The point being that unless Cork start winning minor and Under 21 All Ireland again they can forget about winning senior All Irelands.[/QUOTE]
You may be talking about just hurling, but Donegal and Kerry have certainly debunked that notion.
Cork are in a real conundrum now in the short term. The dual thing was a flop and it will never ever work well, ever again. Walsh has to pick a sport, he is integral to both teams. Cahalane has to as well. Hurling has only been an annoyance for Cadogan and I expect him to fully concentrate on football.
Its a real issue though as you are hurting the confidence of other fringe players by giving these guys special treatment. Another issue is now Walsh will be playing every week for the next 7 or 8 again with the club, there is no let up. Something has to be done to stagger the Cork championships or even seasonalize them where Hurling gets finished by August and football is played after.
As for yesterday, Cork looked over trained or over psyched up or both. These are very good hurlers and their touch was terrible and their pick up worse. Credit Tipp with some good pressure but a few of them were ridiculous, Kearney made 3 attempts at one puck up, Walsh the same but never got it up, Joyce the same and there was multiple double an single attempts failed. I think a combination of over training, being too wound up and not being properly prepared (or arguably respectful) for Tipp played a part. Not saying management did anything but prepare them for Tipp properly but it was reasonably evident that Cork expected it a bit easier than it was. The rushed shooting and poor decision making often indicated a fatigued team. Sounds sill and lads will say they had 5 weeks blaa blaa blaa, but those lads wonât realise the level most IC training is at now and they are all nearly always teetering on the brink of over training.
You play how you train.
On Tipp, their backs were superb and they destroyed Corks half forward line early on. This hurt the confidence. Their puck outs were good if ridiculously easy but I thought much of their forward play was haphazard and ignorant. They looked like a set of forwards at an old County Minor trial game. They did a lot of poor decision making and quite a bit of selfish play. Callinan was actually average enough except the match up suited him and only for Deyer having one of those days you really have to wonder what their mindset could have been at half time had anyone else been below par.
Anyway an obviously fully deserved win, but one built in a fantastic defensive display and a dreadful show from Cork. It wonât be enough in the final.
[QUOTE=âcaoimhaoin, post: 1002411, member: 273â]You may be talking about just hurling, but Donegal and Kerry have certainly debunked that notion.
Cork are in a real conundrum now in the short term. The dual thing was a flop and it will never ever work well, ever again. Walsh has to pick a sport, he is integral to both teams. Cahalane has to as well. Hurling has only been an annoyance for Cadogan and I expect him to fully concentrate on football.
Its a real issue though as you are hurting the confidence of other fringe players by giving these guys special treatment. Another issue is now Walsh will be playing every week for the next 7 or 8 again with the club, there is no let up. Something has to be done to stagger the Cork championships or even seasonalize them where Hurling gets finished by August and football is played after.
[/QUOTE]
Not sure if serious
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 1002406, member: 2272â]Galway have been hugely successful under age and havenât translated it.
In sample size of five or six counties it is a major outlier
theory has some merit as you do need to add players each year but it is arguable the Colleges also fulfil this role as well to an extent
You need structures to transition minors to 21s and to seniors. The playing demands on the top young hurlers are crazy as they have a 12 month season now so you will inevitably see burn out and shorter careers.[/QUOTE]
Galway have been hugely successful at u21, but they are an outliers only in the sense they cannot get over the line and have not won one.
They are considered serious challengers each yearâŚthey donât go away specifically because they do have an underage pipeline.
Theyâll win one again soon, I donât think anybody would deny that
When they do produce a good 21s side they invariably challenge
Please donât try the Fitzgibbon winter weekend story again?
[QUOTE=âKid Chocolate, post: 1002417, member: 553â]Galway have been hugely successful at u21, but they are an outliers only in the sense they cannot get over the line and have not won one.
They are considered serious challengers each yearâŚthey donât go away specifically because they do have an underage pipeline.
Theyâll win one again soon, I donât think anybody would deny that
When they do produce a good 21s side they invariably challenge
Please donât try the Fitzgibbon winter weekend story again?[/QUOTE]
IMO they need to go into Leinster at underage if they are to make real progress.
They also need to do something about the levels of hatred they have for each other.
[QUOTE=âKid Chocolate, post: 1002417, member: 553â]Galway have been hugely successful at u21, but they are an outliers only in the sense they cannot get over the line and have not won one.
They are considered serious challengers each yearâŚthey donât go away specifically because they do have an underage pipeline.
Theyâll win one again soon, I donât think anybody would deny that
When they do produce a good 21s side they invariably challenge
Please donât try the Fitzgibbon winter weekend story again?[/QUOTE]
Galway havenât won an AI in 26 years.
In that time they have won 8 minors and 6 under 21 All Irelands
In those 26 years 6 teams have won the AI so as I say Galway are a major outlier. Wexford won an AI without winning any minor or U21 AI in the same time.
Arguing against myself is that it might be explained in that Galway dominated minor hurling in mid 2000s and were just unlucky to come on the scene when that Kilkenny team arrived but I havenât checked who beat Galway each year.
[QUOTE=âJulio Geordio, post: 1002420, member: 332â]IMO they need to go into Leinster at underage if they are to make real progress.
They also need to do something about the levels of hatred they have for each other.[/QUOTE]
Loughnane finished Galway hurling for a generation
He was like Billy Bob Thornton character in Fargo
@Fagan ODowd, what was your conclusion on Wexfordâs win in 1996? We havenât won a provincial minor since 1985 though Larry OâGorman and Tom Dempsey and other future seniors I canât recall were on that team. We followed up with 2 provincial U21s in 1986 and 1987 but our next U21 wasnât until 1996 itself when Rory McCarthy, Garry Laffan and Paul Codd were on the team. It was strange that the eventual breakthrough in 1996 came with a relatively experienced team who had endured a lot of defeats - none more so than losing the 1993 league final to Cork after two replays and the Leinster Final to Kilkenny that year in a replay too.
[QUOTE=âcaoimhaoin, post: 1002411, member: 273â]You may be talking about just hurling, but Donegal and Kerry have certainly debunked that notion.
Cork are in a real conundrum now in the short term. The dual thing was a flop and it will never ever work well, ever again. Walsh has to pick a sport, he is integral to both teams. Cahalane has to as well. Hurling has only been an annoyance for Cadogan and I expect him to fully concentrate on football.
Its a real issue though as you are hurting the confidence of other fringe players by giving these guys special treatment. Another issue is now Walsh will be playing every week for the next 7 or 8 again with the club, there is no let up. Something has to be done to stagger the Cork championships or even seasonalize them where Hurling gets finished by August and football is played after.
As for yesterday, Cork looked over trained or over psyched up or both. These are very good hurlers and their touch was terrible and their pick up worse. Credit Tipp with some good pressure but a few of them were ridiculous, Kearney made 3 attempts at one puck up, Walsh the same but never got it up, Joyce the same and there was multiple double an single attempts failed. I think a combination of over training, being too wound up and not being properly prepared (or arguably respectful) for Tipp played a part. Not saying management did anything but prepare them for Tipp properly but it was reasonably evident that Cork expected it a bit easier than it was. The rushed shooting and poor decision making often indicated a fatigued team. Sounds sill and lads will say they had 5 weeks blaa blaa blaa, but those lads wonât realise the level most IC training is at now and they are all nearly always teetering on the brink of over training.
You play how you train.
On Tipp, their backs were superb and they destroyed Corks half forward line early on. This hurt the confidence. Their puck outs were good if ridiculously easy but I thought much of their forward play was haphazard and ignorant. They looked like a set of forwards at an old County Minor trial game. They did a lot of poor decision making and quite a bit of selfish play. Callinan was actually average enough except the match up suited him and only for Deyer having one of those days you really have to wonder what their mindset could have been at half time had anyone else been below par.
Anyway an obviously fully deserved win, but one built in a fantastic defensive display and a dreadful show from Cork. It wonât be enough in the final.[/QUOTE]
That theory relates only to hurling. Never looked at football.
Ger Cushe, Sean Flood and Larry O Gorman were on the 85 team. Liam Dunne was a sub.
as I said, Galway are the outlier in that they havenât got over the line, they.ve been beaten narrowly in 4-5 AIs since. They are perennial contenders.
Wexford won the leinster u21 in '96, and '97, and were beaten in '94 and '95 by good KK teamsâŚyour grasping at straws
[QUOTE=âcaoimhaoin, post: 1002411, member: 273â]You may be talking about just hurling, but Donegal and Kerry have certainly debunked that notion.
[/QUOTE]
Donegal won an u-21 All-Irelands in 1982 and 1987 and reached the final in 2010 when Michael Murphy missed a late penalty that would have given them a win.
Kerry did win an u-21 in 2008 and many of the 1997-2009 teams played on their 1995. 1996 and 1998 u-21 All-Ireland winning teams.
I donât know why Fagan OâDowd uses different criteria for âbig threeâ counties and the rest though. Clareâs 1995 and 1997 All-Irelands were achieved having reached just one minor final in 1989, while Wexford won the 1996 All-Ireland having not won a Leinster minor title since 1985 and a Leinster u-21 since 1987.
Cork won four out of five Munster minor titles between 2004 and 2008 and reached the All-Ireland final in the year they didnât win Munster (2007), and a lot of current senior players would have been involved in those teams, so itâs not as if the current Cork senior team doesnât have any underage pedigree.
Thereâs been a huge over reaction to Corkâs defeat yesterday. They performed badly but should still be a genuine contender for the All-Ireland over the next few years.
the minor/u21 theory is being picked apart here lads - Galway, Wexford - that is 33% of the teams who have won AIs in the time FFS sake
are we saying now that being beaten in provincial finals is also to be factored in if beaten by KK
Wexford won that AI in 96 so winning an u21 leinster in 97 is a stretch to relate to it
Are we saying that winning under age and U-21 means you will be a contender but not necessarily win an AI