All Ireland Senior Football Championship 2014

[QUOTE=“Rocko, post: 959748, member: 1”]Kevin,

We’ve always had a very cordial and productive e-relationship. I’m disappointed you personalised the attack with derogotary adjectives and the traditional PM slur. I don’t recall ever questioning your motives or integrity.

Nevertheless I feel it would be remiss of me not to point out one or two grievances I have with the substance of your reply.

The purpose of highlighting your comments on McGuinness around the time of the All Ireland win, was not to expose your hypocrisy or, more benignly, the maturation of your views. It was to directly address your comment that you told everyone McGuinness needed to change things 2 years ago. The reality is that you said almost the exact opposite of that. With hindsight it is perfectly reasonable to say that the views you had then were either right or wrong and who cares. But hindsight doesn’t give you the opportunity to change what you actually said and claim orcale status as a result.

To avoid going around in circles on this issue, let’s just agree that when you said “you’d only be tweaking and moving on with Donegal” you have changed your mind since.

You will doubtless be aware that the All Ireland Championship is an unforgiving tournament that doesn’t afford participants much chance to recover if they have an off day. Donegal were very poor on exiting the Championship last year but your assertion at the time that McGuinness should step down was absurd. Likewise your insistence now that Donegal “cleraly were not” using a scientific approach before now is utterly at odds with everything you wrote at the time, everything that was in the media at the time, and the general acceptance that a core component in Donegal’s All Ireland win was their scientific approach to training.

You were not “privvy to all this info at the time” and you’re not privvy to it now. You’re guessing as you readily admit. Some of it is informed guesswork, some of it is based on your studies, some of it is based on misreading newspaper articles, some of it is based on people Kev knows. All of it contributes to an opinion you form and then declare that selfsame opinion to be unimpeachable, indisputable and how dare anyone challenge it ever and this is the fucking truth goddammit and what anyone else know who isn’t close to the Donegal community in Perth?

I agree with most of what you’re written about Dublin there. Again, the cause of debate was that you were so vehement and absolute in your views last year that Dublin would be found out because of the weaknesses (that became strengths). And you are equally determined this year to say that Dublin don’t have a strong group of forwards on the bench because you’re palpably unfamiliar with one of them and the rest you believe are undermined because Dublin are so good in other areas and because of something about Brian Hurley.

TFK would be nothing without opinions and it would be a dull place without your contributions. But arguing that Dublin don’t have a historically strong group of forwards on the bench appeared contrary more than anything.[/QUOTE]
You are wrong, like I said already, I would have changed things 2 year ago. And I would have change them last year and this year as well. I have not changed my min at all.
While Donegal were using some scientific methods, I now believe they were a little cruder than I expected in their running and conditioning, I probably did give them too much credit there. It seemed to stack up from the year before that they were building slowly and methodically, and while they did that football wise it looks like they
didn’t Conditioing wise. I had been told as we’ll they were using infra red technology, and this appears to be bollix as well.

When you see someone has a degree in sports science and psychology I would have expecte that. However, and nothing to do with Donegal, I have come to see that a lot of sports science qualified people have no idea what to do with a team and don’t always make good conditioning coaches. Now of course he did a great job with them as he won the AI, end Of story. However to go back an do the exact same thing again the following year was but silly and surprising. He has seen the error and either on advice or on reflection has changed it. I really don’t get why you cannot see this series of events. And also how I would have seen it. My point on him leaving last year was, thinking back, that he seemed to have lost the team and they looked very over trained. He has more or less confirmed they over trained, but the list and type of injuries indicated that last year anyway. He stayed on and look to have got them back to a reasonable level again, although I don’t see, yet, how they can reproduce 2012 without McHugh an the fact a couple of teams will now match them physically.

You see what you are missing, badly, is that you can change training without changing how you play too much. There is no logic to your accusations. I had information back then like we all had, I judged it then the way I saw it. I have more info now, I have an adjuste view. I realise that’s hard for the mathimathical intelligent accountant type to get their head around, but they’d the way people like me can think.

I have already explained in very detailed fashion why I think the strength of the Dublin bench is being over rated. Of course they are good, Mannion would start on any team in the country, but you were over blowing them, end of story. Everyone get carried away with exciting teams, but it must be remembered Dublin have a few close game last year, and are definitely beatable.

All you are doing is re-hashing and twisting everything to save face. It’s embarrassing. Most people here got exactly what I was saying.

[QUOTE=“caoimhaoin, post: 959782, member: 273”] I had been told as we’ll they were using infra red technology, and this appears to be bollix as well.

[/QUOTE]

Fucking brilliant

[QUOTE=“caoimhaoin, post: 959782, member: 273”]

I have already explained in very detailed fashion why I think the strength of the Dublin bench is being over rated. Of course they are good, Mannion would start on any team in the country, but you were over blowing them, end of story. Everyone get carried away with exciting teams, but it must be remembered Dublin have a few close game last year, and are definitely beatable.

.[/QUOTE]

Kev, Dublin’s bench scored 0-9 fairly evenly spread between 4 of them on Sunday and McMenamin also set up the first goal with a lovely bit of skill. The same subs have been instrumental in last year’s championship and this year’s league in winning games for Dublin when it comes down to the wire in the last ten minutes and Dublin win going away. I still don’t know how you can’t see this.

Also speaking to one of the backroom team recently they actually have a defined impact sub list per game as part of their plans. I previously referenced Jack McCaffrey as filling one of the roles this year. Ergo their bench is expected to have a serious impact on the match and their role is defined on what they are expected to do to change the game.

2nd goal surely?

[QUOTE=“caoimhaoin, post: 959782, member: 273”]You are wrong, like I said already, I would have changed things 2 year ago. And I would have change them last year and this year as well. I have not changed my min at all.
While Donegal were using some scientific methods, I now believe they were a little cruder than I expected in their running and conditioning, I probably did give them too much credit there. It seemed to stack up from the year before that they were building slowly and methodically, and while they did that football wise it looks like they
didn’t Conditioing wise. I had been told as we’ll they were using infra red technology, and this appears to be bollix as well.

When you see someone has a degree in sports science and psychology I would have expecte that. However, and nothing to do with Donegal, I have come to see that a lot of sports science qualified people have no idea what to do with a team and don’t always make good conditioning coaches. Now of course he did a great job with them as he won the AI, end Of story. However to go back an do the exact same thing again the following year was but silly and surprising. He has seen the error and either on advice or on reflection has changed it. I really don’t get why you cannot see this series of events. And also how I would have seen it. My point on him leaving last year was, thinking back, that he seemed to have lost the team and they looked very over trained. He has more or less confirmed they over trained, but the list and type of injuries indicated that last year anyway. He stayed on and look to have got them back to a reasonable level again, although I don’t see, yet, how they can reproduce 2012 without McHugh an the fact a couple of teams will now match them physically.

You see what you are missing, badly, is that you can change training without changing how you play too much. There is no logic to your accusations. I had information back then like we all had, I judged it then the way I saw it. I have more info now, I have an adjuste view. I realise that’s hard for the mathimathical intelligent accountant type to get their head around, but they’d the way people like me can think.

I have already explained in very detailed fashion why I think the strength of the Dublin bench is being over rated. Of course they are good, Mannion would start on any team in the country, but you were over blowing them, end of story. Everyone get carried away with exciting teams, but it must be remembered Dublin have a few close game last year, and are definitely beatable.

All you are doing is re-hashing and twisting everything to save face. It’s embarrassing. Most people here got exactly what I was saying.[/QUOTE]

That was an altogether less emotional response.

A few points, again:

  1. You have absolutely no evidence to support your idea that Donegal did the exact same training last year as the previous year. You have revised your opinion on the training they were doing in 2012 (2 years later) but seem certain on what they were doing in 2013. You don’t have this information. You are drawing wild and emphatic conclusions based on a variety of unreliable sources.

  2. McGuinness has changed his training in 2014. He has not said that this was correcting a previous error. Indeed, one view might be that we know he changed the training in 2014 so it seems logical to assume that he changed it in 2013 also. You were mistakenly directed to an article that you thought suggested that McGuinness was blaming injuries on his previous training methodolgies. Despite having the article explained to you, you have refused to acknoweldge that it was a simple misinterpretation. The original error was perfectly understandable, particularly given the misleading headline. But insisting afterwards that McGuinness meant something other than what he is directly quoted as saying is fantastical.

  3. You continue to labour under the misinterpretation that anyone said that changing training was bad. Nobody said that but you’re arguing this passionately like your life depends on it. Against nobody. What I and others picked up on was your assertion that McGuinness didn’t change his training until this year and that he did so because of injuries and that incredibly he hadn’t used a scientific approach until now. You think you have more information now. You don’t. You have different guesses now. That’s extremely different to everything everyone (including you) was saying in 2012 when they were peerless in terms of preparation.

  4. You had a knee-jerk recation to Donegal losing last year. You went from considering McGuinness the messiah to calling for his resignation in 9 months, on the basis of 2 results. For all your talk about sports science, you won’t find many who would rashly suggest changing a manager after 2 results go against him. It’s that sort of reactionary, emotional response that would be laughed out of court by anyone with even a basic familiarity of elite sport. Unfortunately you seem unprepared to move on from that moment and are viewing everything to do with Donegal through the prism of your outburst against McGuinness. It’s now reached the point where you don’t think they put any scientific thought into their training until this year. Didn’t McGuinness get very lucky so. To show such a turnaround in the team’s fortunes, to have the team improve along a linear curve, to have the team physically dominating every game they played for 2 years. What a lucky man.

  5. Of course Dublin had close games last year and of course they are beatable. Did you forget to explain why that means they don’t have strong bench this year? As far as I can see it’s not relevant at all. Dublin have been emphatically the best team in the country for over a year now. That’s difficult to achieve and will be difficult to maintain. There are plenty of reasons behind their success but it is universally acknowledged (with apparently one dissenting voice in Perth) that their subs have been and are ever more a critical and largely unprecedented factor in how dominant they have been. This was perfectly illustrated on Sunday even. Weak opposition, tired opposition etc were all factors. But Dublin brought players off the bench who steamrolled the opposition.

Tick.

Agree.

You are correct. Kev, please consider my above rationale as now being completely invalid.

Jim Mcguinnes had Donegal players eating plates of potatoes for their breakfast …to me, that is not very scientific …its actually a throwback to walter Raleigh’s time…

My take - Kev knows a lot about S&C and can read between the lines and see nuances in things.

Lads with no or limited knowledge read things literally or need to be spoonfed.

You will never see a manager say “I made a mistake/bags of that” but a change in approach suggests the old way wasn’t working and when they mention injuries then you can draw a reasonable inference.

How did some of you watch a movie like Inception without crib notes. Sometimes things are suggested without being spelled out Ladybird style.

What? When the potato famine took place?

[QUOTE=“TheUlteriorMotive, post: 959915, member: 2272”]My take - Kev knows a lot about S&C and can read between the lines and see nuances in things.

Lads with no or limited knowledge read things literally or need to be spoonfed.

You will never see a manager say “I made a mistake/bags of that” but a change in approach suggests the old way wasn’t working and when they mention injuries then you can draw a reasonable inference.
[/QUOTE]
The argument wasn’t over what somebody thinks privately. The argument was over what somebody is on record as saying.

You’d find that very few managers wouldn’t have done some things differently over the course of a season if they had the chance again.

[QUOTE=“TheUlteriorMotive, post: 959915, member: 2272”]
How did some of you watch a movie like Inception without crib notes. Sometimes things are suggested without being spelled out Ladybird style.[/QUOTE]

Good analogy, Inception was a great piece of fiction, a lot like Kevin’s posts.

[QUOTE=“TheUlteriorMotive, post: 959915, member: 2272”]My take - Kev knows a lot about S&C and can read between the lines and see nuances in things.

Lads with no or limited knowledge read things literally or need to be spoonfed.

You will never see a manager say “I made a mistake/bags of that” but a change in approach suggests the old way wasn’t working and when they mention injuries then you can draw a reasonable inference.

How did some of you watch a movie like Inception without crib notes. Sometimes things are suggested without being spelled out Ladybird style.[/QUOTE]

cracking post…:clap:

sums up II Bomber Destro …you try to be a smart ass but in fact you are just fuckin clueless. . that’s why you need every little thing explained to you and when you don’t get the answer, you keep asking, thinking its some kind of moral victory when in fact lads just couldn’t be bothered entertaining your stupidty…

[QUOTE=“The Scouse Cafu, post: 959919, member: 2660”]The argument wasn’t over what somebody thinks privately. The argument was over what somebody is on record as saying.

You’d find that very few managers wouldn’t have done some things differently over the course of a season if they had the chance again.[/QUOTE]

have you ever played or being involved with a team that played at a high level of adult football/hurling like @caoimhaoin has ?.. experience in that environment , like any environment, has to count for something I would imagine…

It’s not that you won’t, it’s that you can’t. When somebody keeps replying to my posts yet point blank refuses to participate in the matter of discussion and continues to evasive when challenging something then I think that says a lot. You preach intelligence yet practice ignorance, I’ll just continue to draw that out in your posts.

Has Kevin?

but if I deem some of your questions to be ridiculously stupid and clueless then there is hardly any point in answering them…that would be intelligence …:wink:

he has said before here that he has…i think he is very opinionated and a master in tunnel vision but I wouldn’t call him a liar…

[QUOTE=“TheUlteriorMotive, post: 959915, member: 2272”]My take - Kev knows a lot about S&C and can read between the lines and see nuances in things.

Lads with no or limited knowledge read things literally or need to be spoonfed.

You will never see a manager say “I made a mistake/bags of that” but a change in approach suggests the old way wasn’t working and when they mention injuries then you can draw a reasonable inference.

How did some of you watch a movie like Inception without crib notes. Sometimes things are suggested without being spelled out Ladybird style.[/QUOTE]

As @The Scouse Cafu has said, that isn’t really what anyone is debating. Nobody is saying McGuinness doesn’t or hasn’t changed anything. Rather Kevin is saying that McGuinness changed nothing until this year and that he admitted this year that he did so because of injuries. Kev has gone a step further and said what he did until now is unscientific. We’re supposed to treat Kev as somehow being more qualified than McGuinness.

McGuinness mentioned injuries but didn’t blame training for them. Are people really incapable of reading his quotes properly?