So why did this not happen with small pox when vaccination started happening? How was polio eliminated in most of the world?
SARS 1 was also eradicated.
Note that when the vaccines were unveiled, they were never said to be 100% effective. The more Covid that is around, the more it will spread among the unvaccinated, especially as you relax restrictions, and thus the more chances for the vaccinated to be infected.
I think it would be great craic if some state run by Democrats brought in a law where anybody who could be construed to be helping spread the pandemic, such as, say, people who refused to wear masks, could be brought to court in order that random people to get a $10,000 bounty.
Just to see how Republicans and ālibertariansā, who have been curiously quiet over the new Texas abortion law, would react.
SARS -1 was contained because only people who were symptomatic transmitted it, so measures like temperature screening, quarantine of the sick, etc. worked well. It never really got going on a global scale, only 8,000 people were infected, which is just as well as the CFR was over 10%. The difference with SARS-2 is people transmit it before they have symptoms, and itās airborne (thereās some evidence SARS-1 was airborne towards the end of the outbreak). The WHO also have to be given credit as they were very aggressive in early control measures, unlike SARS-2.
Smallpox similar, people were only contagious after sores appeared, and it needed close contact and prolonged exposure to spread, so it could be contained by quarantine. Polio mainly spread through the fecal to oral route, similar to typhoid, cholera and hepatitis. No question that vaccination ended both these dreadful diseases that had been around for many centuries or maybe millennia along with improvements in hygiene, water treatment, etc.
I donāt think itās realistic to think we can eradicate Covid. 90% of Immunologists and Virologists surveyed in January 2021 believed it is already endemic and will stay that way for many years, and that was before Delta. I think the best we can hope for is via a combination of increased immunity and better treatment it will become a less serious illness over time.
I fully agree that thereās a line there with AIDS, but the line is where it is due to how the HIV virus is spread and the survival probability associated with it.
I also agree with one key word in your post; responsibility. This goes to the very heart of the discussion. The fundamental problem is when people force their will on others. When someone with a temperature, gets onto public transport, coughing and sneezing, they are forcing their will on others. The responsible approach is to stay at home. When a HIV-positive person has unprotected sex with another person and does not disclose their medical status, they are forcing their will on another person. Likewise, when you mandate vaccines for an entire population, including those that chose not to take them, you are forcing your will on people. You are denying them the opportunity to be responsible and to govern themselves.
Just to bring this back to the vaccine, I am concerned about the overall argument imbalance in the media, and the fact that important arguments against the vaccines are being excluded. There are hidden assumptions that need to be made more explicit. The fact that I am not getting vaccinated does not make me reckless, nor does it mean I am automatically putting people at risk. I am well-read on virus transmission pathways, and am conscientious enough to stay at home if I feel unwell. Is it conceivable that a cohort of vaccinated people carry on irresponsibly, going out in public when they feel unwell, simply because theyāre vaccinated? Who carries the greater risk to the vulnerable?
Joe is pro vaccine and scienceā¦
I wouldnāt blame the vaccinated as they were told that vaccination would not alone prevent disease but also meant they couldnāt transmit the virus. It was common enough to meet people back in April - June and the first words they uttered was āIām vaccinatedā as they extended their hand or wanted a hug. Canāt blame them for human nature, I did a bit of hugging myself.
But the more I think about this, the more it makes sense. If you look at case numbers in the US they absolutely plummeted from February and reached a low in June that hadnāt been seen since the pandemic began. This was all attributed to vaccination and fair enough, but there were a lot fewer vaccinated back then. So why didnāt the great unwashed unvaccinated continue to get infected during these months? I would say it was because they didnāt change their behavior as they had no reason to. Obviously thereās always people who are irresponsible but most adults are reasonably careful in my experience.
But the group that did change their behavior are the vaccinated. Social distancing went out the window, hugs and kisses all around, party on Garth. But Delta was waiting to pounce in the wings. So I think the most likely explanation is a large increase in breakthrough Delta infections in July onwards not detected by the CDC as they had stopped monitoring breakthrough infections in May.
If I am correct (I am) itās the vaccinated that have driven the latest wave and are responsible for most of the spread of Delta, which has resulted in a spike in hospitalizations and deaths of the unvaccinated.
The cunts.
Joe is an entertainer who just sold the rights to his podcast to Spotify for $100 million.
Getting and surviving Covid is the best thing that has ever happened to him.
Iād say heāll bankrupt the vaccine companies at this rate of going
Thereās no fear of them.
True enough. If oxycontin didnāt ruffle their feathers nothing will
Fentalyl was their finest hour, invented by Paul Janssen no less.
When a HIV infected person knowingly has sex with another person who is unaware of their status, that is also a particular definition of freedom, of personal choice.
But itās only a personal choice of the person who is infected. Itās a not a personal choice of the unknowing uninfected person.
A hospital worker who works with patients in the most vulnerable age groups choosing to remain unvaccinated is a form of freedom, a personal choice.
But itās not a personal choice of the elderly patients.
In indoor pubs we used to allow smoking. Now we donāt. That form of freedom is gone.
We used to allow drink driving. Now we donāt. Thatās a āfreedomā taken away.
Seat belts have to be worn. If somebody is driving on their own, they still have to wear a seat belt, even though theyāre unlikely to do damage to anybody but themselves by not wearing a seat belt, if they crash. Thatās a freedom taken away.
To me arguing that somebody who is unvaccinated is more likely to be responsible as regards Covid is like arguing that a driver not wearing a seat belt is likely to be more responsible than a driver who is. It doesnāt make sense.
Itās more responsible to wear a seat belt than to not do so because it means youāre less likely to die in a crash. Itās more responsible to be vaccinated against Covid because it means youāre less likely to die, or to be hospitalised ā and that matters in terms of not creating a backlog in the health service which prevents or delays non-Covid patients accessing treatment they need, or for the Covid infected person to knock out a workplace or a school for two weeks. And it means youāre less likely to pass on the virus. Youāre less likely to be symptomatic. And it matters because every Covid case is likely to lead to more cases.
Getting vaccinated lessens all those risks. Ironically, when you say that the unvaccinated are likely to be more responsible, youāre making a very similar argument as Tony Holohan made as regards antigen testing. I didnāt agree with that argument then, and I donāt agree with it now. Mass testing at a population level is one avenue of helping to control this thing, so is mass vaccination.
Somebody who has decided to not get vaccinated has, with all reputable medical evidence available, miscalculated as regards risk to themselves. And if they have miscalculated the risk for themselves, they are in all likelihood going to be more cavalier about the risk to others, not less. Because of the nature of this pandemic, and because virtually no person can isolate themselves from society, they are by definition miscalcuating risk to others, they are increasing that risk. Every person who does this is doing so.
Sometimes personal choices infringe on other peopleās freedom and this is one of those times. Thatās why we have rules and laws, why we have to have rules and laws. If we cannot physically force vaccines into peopleās arms, and I donāt see how we can do that, or that we should want to, we can and should implement push factors which advantage those who are vaccinated and penalise those who arenāt. We can do that on a governmental level and we can do that on a private sector level too. The right of private sector businesses to perform actions of this nature is ironically one of the cornerstones of US libertarian thought, ironically now bitterly opposed by the majority of libertarians - in this particular case.
Collective problems cannot be solved through relying on individual action. Because enough people will always take advantage that the problem does not get solved or is dragged out longer than it would otherwise have been. In this case, we run the risk of never solving the problem, or at least making it somewhat manageable, and that is unthinkable for humanity. Therefore, and especially with a pandemic this serious, we need to enforce rules, and laws. This problem is far too serious for us as a society not to do so. Basic functioning society is at risk here and magical thinking will not rescue it.
If you believe that, it makes no sense to blame the unvaccinated, but it certainly does make sense to blame governments for not having stricter rules in place.
If people are told they can behave in a certain way, you cannot blame them for doing so.
Incidentally, I prefer to blame those who are pushing an anti-vaccine message in the public eye, rather than those who lap it up. The masses who follow are just the fodder.
There are very few who are anti-vax or believe an anti-vax message.
Wrong. Even on this board the people who havenāt gotten vaccinated thought that ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine were cures. Basically anything except that vaccine and mainstream science.
You keep doing what youāre told, mate.
āWithā or āOfā Covid
And people denied or delayed health care due to pandemic.
