Coronavirus Thread (Markey hates Immigrants )

The Government has no option but to take the Delta Covid variant into account as it ponders the further lifting of restrictions on July 5th. But it also needs to heed worrying signs that Irish society has been panicked to such an extent over the past 18 months that a large number of people may never return to normal living.

We have had a longer and more restrictive lockdown than most countries in the world but, even before the Delta variant became the latest blot on the horizon, it seems that a significant proportion of the population had been terrified into backing an indefinite lockdown, despite the successful rollout of the vaccine programme and the small number of people now hospitalised by the virus.

Last week’s Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI opinion poll revealed that while half all voters thought the Government is proceeding to reopen society at the correct pace, almost as many believed that society and business should be opened up at a much slower rate than planned.

The question not just for the Government, but for society at large, is how to adjust from a strategy of trying to beat the virus to one of living with it

Unsurprisingly the over 65s are the most cautious, although most are now vaccinated and at little risk. When asked if society should get back to the way it was before Covid when most people are vaccinated, only 32 per cent of people said yes, with twice that number believing that some precautions should remain in place indefinitely. A significant minority of people said they were anxious about socialising during the summer.

There is a massive divergence on age grounds too on all of the questions about Covid, with older people more frightened and less in favour of a return to normal. Unsurprisingly young take a very different view and are looking forward to getting back to normal life as quickly as possible.

There is little doubt that the Delta variant will become the prevailing one in the coming weeks and it will almost certainly have an impact on the case numbers. However, given the successful rollout of the vaccine among the vulnerable older age groups, the impact in terms of hospitalisations should not been anything like as severe as it was in the earlier waves.

In recent days there have been around 40 people in hospital with the number in intensive care in the low teens. Given that there are about 14,500 hospital beds in the country, with the capacity for around 350 intensive care beds, there does not appear to be any danger of the hospital system being overwhelmed by the Delta variant.

Have the vaccinated over-60s a right to deprive people in their 20s and 30s of a social life for another summer?

That does not make it any easier for the Government to decide what to do next. If it proceeds with the planned phased reopening and there is a surge of cases during July it will attract criticism from its opponents, but if it opts to postpone lifting restrictions until the vaccination programme is further advanced it will draw the fire not just of the hospitality industry but also from a large cohort of people who are desperate for a return to some semblance of normal life.

The question not just for the Government, but for society at large, is how to adjust from a strategy of trying to beat the virus to one of living with it once most people have been vaccinated. The issue was raised at the Fine Gael parliamentary party on Wednesday as speculation grew about the prospect of another delay in the easing of restrictions.

A number of TDs and senators, including Minister of State Patrick O’Donovan, spoke of the need for the Government to outline a clear path for living with the virus, saying the country should not be shut down in a “yo-yo” fashion. Senator Barry Ward told colleagues that while the Government had to listen to health experts, other factors like the impact on the economy and society had to be taken into account and the Coalition “must be seen to govern”.

In truly authoritarian hands, the powers we have ceded to the State during the pandemic could undermine our freedom in ways we never contemplated

There are some very important questions here to which there are no obvious right and wrong answers; Have the vaccinated over-60s a right to deprive people in their 20s and 30s of a social life for another summer? The young have undertaken enormous personal sacrifices to protect their elders for the past 18 months and maybe it is time for the older generation to return the favour.

People have to take individual responsibility along with a sensible attitude to risk if normal life is to resume. Those who feel they are vulnerable to the virus can make their own choices about who, if anybody, they want to meet, where they want to go and where to avoid. Locking down society indefinitely to protect the fearful is not an option.

The long-term impact of Covid on society cannot be ignored. Estonia’s prime minister Kaja Kalles told the Financial Times during the week of her fear that some countries have been so slow to relax restrictions that it could do lasting damage to western liberal democracies. “What we have seen in this Covid crisis, this urge for a strong hands or an authoritarian way of governing is deep in our societies, even in some countries you would never believe.” In truly authoritarian hands, the powers we have ceded to the State during the pandemic could undermine our freedom in ways we never contemplated.

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It’s a joke. They’ll delay the opening until the middle of august. As this date approaches there’ll be worry over schools reopening and they’ll postpone it again.

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Just open up and get on with it. Most people over 40 have now had at least on shot of the vaccine so just get on with it.

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Laughable, all the businesses they are destroying and 13 in ICU.

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@glasagusban badly wrong again. The shambolic vaccine rollout pushing the opening up back to August.

I think we’ll proceed with reopening.

I’d like to see more emphasis put on ventilation and the pointless rules on distancing done away with. I wouldn’t mind more restrictions on numbers indoors if they increased numbers that could do things outdoors, like attend matches. I think that would be sensible.

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The irony is the lads here who claim to be the most OIUTF are generally those who most admire authoritarians. And I think that’s generally true for society as a whole too.

They’re all over the place.

I honestly haven’t a clue what you’re on about and I don’t think you do either.

Having a wine industry is dependent on climate. Covid spread is not dependent on climate.

Bizarre reference.

What sort of “emphasis” would you like put on ventilation? ie. What sort of rules would there be and who would impose them? How many pubs and restaurants are there in the country? How much does a proper ventilation system cost?

If antigen testing was to be introduced, how many tests per day would need to be carried out? Who would carry them out? My understanding is that Denmark is conducting something like 200k PCR tests per day and 500k antigen tests per day.

Denmark’s system seems to be working OK right now, but will that be the case if the Delta variant spreads?

Also in Denmark, privilege is given to those who have had a test recently. If you don’t have a short term pass issued by the state, you don’t get entry to bars or restaurants.

The feeling among a lot of posters here seems to be that they are not willing to put up with this. They call it “apartheid”.

I can just imagine Paddy trying to enforce a Corona Pass system in pubs. It would be hilarious.

You’re right. Why try to grapple with tricky questions that would enable us to proceed safely.

We should go for zero covid.

That’s not much of an answer.

As I explained yesterday, I don’t think there’s any point in trying to engage with you in good faith on this topic, because you are unwilling to.

I think you’ll find it was NPHET and Government saying that we needed to avoid a societal apartheid by asking vulnerable people to stay at home

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Personally I think you’ve consistently engaged in bad faith on this for quite a while now but I’m still willing to engage with you.

If you aren’t I think it only undermines you, not me.

Sure the “focussed protection” people, who have been championed by the self styled “freedom lovers” here, were asking for a much greater level of societal “apartheid”, and for a much longer time.

Are you saying that Government asking people in older age groups to stay home during the peaks of a pandemic was anything other than sensible?

This guy consistently makes excellent points.

The indicators are moving in the right direction because of the very public health measures that the OIUTF crowd have so derided.

The reason the July 5th reopening is likely to be postponed, and should be postponed, is because it is expected that the Delta variant will spread quite significantly, and it would be idiocy to pour petrol on the flames of its spread by packing hundreds of thousands of unvaccinated people into indoor settings.

False hope is a terrible thing. I’ve never believed in false hope. Throughout the spring, this forum was clamouring to be given hope. Yis can’t complain when that hope turns out to have been false. Yis were warned.

Patience is a virtue. But in our new, all singing, all dancing “I want it now” instant gratification society, patience seems to be old hat. More’s the pity.

“Mandatory Hotel Quarantine is imperfect but it’s better than nothing.”

“Antigen testing isn’t perfect, we couldn’t possibly use it.”

Hmmmm


On both of these issues we are massively out of step with the rest of the EU. When you find yourself in such a position you should ask, how likely is it that Paddy is right and everyone else is wrong?

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Paddy as a state is correct.

Ordinary punter Paddy on the street has a terrible inferiority complex. Ordinary punter Paddy on the street loves to self-flagellate. Ordinary punter Paddy on the street refuses to believe that Paddy as a state could ever get anything right.

A lot of the time Paddy’s distrust of his government would be justified.

And a lot of the time Paddy’s government’s distrust of Paddy on the street would be justified. It’s justified in the case of Paddy and dhrink. Paddy loves to bend the rules. Paddy with dhrink in him is a walking disaster area.

Paddy’s attitude to the rules and Paddy with dhrink in him is why we can’t have nice things. You can’t trust Paddy.

Paddy needs to lash the vaccine into him before he can have nice things again. Paddy refuses to understand that.

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