European and Local Elections

I agree with the idealogy part. Fianna Fail in particular, the anti partition party, the party that pushed us through a civil war on that basis, and when partition was causing our citizens horrendous abuses in the six counties they did nothing.

[quote=“therock67”]Joe Higgins isn’t all that pro-Union. He’s for the idea of unions for working people but I’d say he’s not too popular in SIPTU because he embarrasses them into abandoning their cartel to defend people like the Gama workers - SIPTU wanted nothing to do with that.

It wasn’t the public sector that caused the property bubble or the banking crisis. They are responsible for the state we’re in. It’s the subscribers to the free market theories that have sold our resources to the highest bidder only to see those high bidders fucking off elsewhere as sson as they felt like it.[/QUOTE]

And it wasn’t the ordinary private sector worker that caused it either but guess what, we are losing jobs at an alarming rate.

The structure of the public sector, with its unions, has meant that it is vastly overstaffed as it is practically impossible to fire anyone. The performance appraisal system that is carried out contains no mention of performance but only how to identify training needs. This is due to the unions. As a result you have system where underperformers are catered for. We, as a Nation, simply cannot afford to those type of luxuries anymore.

I only noticed today that the lad that accused Willie O’Dea of assaulting him is running for the limerick city council…

My moneys on Higgo to pick up the third seat.

[quote=“farmerinthecity”]And it wasn’t the ordinary private sector worker that caused it either but guess what, we are losing jobs at an alarming rate.

The structure of the public sector, with its unions, has meant that it is vastly overstaffed as it is practically impossible to fire anyone. The performance appraisal system that is carried out contains no mention of performance but only how to identify training needs. This is due to the unions. As a result you have system where underperformers are catered for. We, as a Nation, simply cannot afford to those type of luxuries anymore.[/QUOTE]

if the unions have to much power then thats the governments fault

i think your point about performance appraisal could be wrong

[quote=“north county corncrake”]
i think your point about performance appraisal could be wrong[/QUOTE]

Trust me - it’s not.

this cunt has to be the most punchable looking cunt running for election

http://paschaldonohoe.finegael.ie/rep-images/DonohoeP.jpg

smug looking bastard came looking for my vote tonight, cunt got told to fuck off after voicing his support for concurrent sentencing and for not linking dole payments to social behaviour

im sure teachers, nurses etc performance is mentioned in reviews

Larry can you confirm or deny?

my place definitely does

They certainly have some of the most unforgettable ministers.

Ernest Blythe (Cumann na Gael - their spawn pool) cut a shilling off the OAP in 1924.
[B]Jawwnn Bruton /B caused a General Election over VAT on children’s shoes in the 80’s. Jim Kemmy screwed him…
Richie Ryan (Richie Ruin) became a national hate figure in his time for his stringent attitude to finances treating us tax-payers then like we were cash machines.

Excellent minds my arse. Idealists…

[quote=“north county corncrake”]im sure teachers, nurses etc performance is mentioned in reviews

Larry can you confirm or deny?

my place definitely does[/QUOTE]

It is indeed yes. Would depend a lot on where you work though I’d imagine. Teachers and nurses get their reviews everyday anyway by working with children and patients. They are probably most reviewed workers in the state if truth be known!

[quote=“north county corncrake”]im sure teachers, nurses etc performance is mentioned in reviews

Larry can you confirm or deny?

my place definitely does[/QUOTE]

‘Mentioned’ in terms of a ‘by the way you’re performing shite but there is nothing I can do about it’ or ‘mentioned’ in terms of actually identifying a poor performer and tailoring their salary based on that?

[quote=“farmerinthecity”]And it wasn’t the ordinary private sector worker that caused it either but guess what, we are losing jobs at an alarming rate.

The structure of the public sector, with its unions, has meant that it is vastly overstaffed as it is practically impossible to fire anyone. The performance appraisal system that is carried out contains no mention of performance but only how to identify training needs. This is due to the unions. As a result you have system where underperformers are catered for. We, as a Nation, simply cannot afford to those type of luxuries anymore.[/QUOTE]

The unions didn’t create the public sector. There were unions in the private sector too - if the government have institutionalised inefficient work practices then that doesn’t make it the fault of the unions.

Cutting back on public sector spending in health and/or education is not going to get is out of this recession. In fact it might make it a lot worse. There’s nothing like an underclass to prolong an economic downturn.

I think people look on cuts in public sector spending now as a cut in employment costs. That’s the government (and to a certain extent the media) agenda. The reality is what you’re cutting is services. You’re increasing class sizes, you’re renting even more prefabs instead of building schools or at least owning the prefabs. You’re forcing more people to wait longer for substandard healthcare and this is supposed to improve the country.

If you want to cut waste in education then stop renting prefabs from the government pals who lease them. That’s not the fault of the public or civil service workers. That’s just ministerial avoidance of responsibility and fear of change.

If you want to earn more revenue in the health sector then charge private hospitals a fair rate for the infrastructure and land they’re using that is gifted to them in order to allow them make a profit while the public health system has to deal with all the messy cases.

There’s plenty of scope for cuts in the public sector - blaming it all on employment costs is the wish of the government at present. That’s because it distracts from the idiotic wastes of money they’ve presided over in their preposterous projects.

85m on prefabs in 2008. Presumably at least the same again in 2009. What a fucking waste.

52m on electronic voting!

1.3m on a shop for the Dil!
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-dearest-little-shop-in-town-1476150.html

Plenty more cases like that. 83m bill for a pipe in Limerick when they fucked up the contract.

Those are the real wastes and none of them are anything to do with unions.

[quote=“Boxtyeater”]They certainly have some of the most unforgettable ministers.

Ernest Blythe (Cumann na Gael - their spawn pool) cut a shilling off the OAP in 1924.
[B]Jawwnn Bruton /B caused a General Election over VAT on children’s shoes in the 80’s. Jim Kemmy screwed him…
Richie Ryan (Richie Ruin) became a national hate figure in his time for his stringent attitude to finances treating us tax-payers then like we were cash machines.

Excellent minds my arse. Idealists…[/QUOTE]

Sorry I meant always in the current Dil, not previous sittings.

[quote=“therock67”]The unions didn’t create the public sector. There were unions in the private sector too - if the government have institutionalised inefficient work practices then that doesn’t make it the fault of the unions.

Cutting back on public sector spending in health and/or education is not going to get is out of this recession. In fact it might make it a lot worse. There’s nothing like an underclass to prolong an economic downturn.

I think people look on cuts in public sector spending now as a cut in employment costs. That’s the government (and to a certain extent the media) agenda. The reality is what you’re cutting is services. You’re increasing class sizes, you’re renting even more prefabs instead of building schools or at least owning the prefabs. You’re forcing more people to wait longer for substandard healthcare and this is supposed to improve the country.

If you want to cut waste in education then stop renting prefabs from the government pals who lease them. That’s not the fault of the public or civil service workers. That’s just ministerial avoidance of responsibility and fear of change.

If you want to earn more revenue in the health sector then charge private hospitals a fair rate for the infrastructure and land they’re using that is gifted to them in order to allow them make a profit while the public health system has to deal with all the messy cases.

There’s plenty of scope for cuts in the public sector - blaming it all on employment costs is the wish of the government at present. That’s because it distracts from the idiotic wastes of money they’ve presided over in their preposterous projects.

85m on prefabs in 2008. Presumably at least the same again in 2009. What a fucking waste.

52m on electronic voting!

1.3m on a shop for the Dil!
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-dearest-little-shop-in-town-1476150.html

Plenty more cases like that. 83m bill for a pipe in Limerick when they fucked up the contract.

Those are the real wastes and none of them are anything to do with unions.[/QUOTE]

Oh I’m agreeing with you Rocko re wastes of government money. Part of those vast wastes of money, perhaps the largest part in fact, was throwing good money after bad into the HSE, which was literally like throwing it down the drain. Address the structural inefficiencies, address things like performance related pay because despite the fact that you have more numbers, it doesn’t mean that you have a better utilisation of resources and overall a better service.

But the Government can’t do that because the Unions won’t allow it. I don’t know whether that is due to the Government being too chicken shit to face them and take them on, or the Unions rigidly digging their heels in (bit of both I suppose) but our Public Service is overstaffed and inefficient (bit of a general statement I know, some areas worse than other etc).

I am not necessarily advocating a blanket wide cut, but one of the primary things this Government should be doing is addressing it, and addressing aspects which allow underperformers to prosper and draining the state. Perofrmance realted pay (from the bottom to the top) would be a start, zero based budgeting another. I think then you’ll find that there are many people employed in the public sector needlessly.

But the unions won’t allow this. I think it is a perfectly reasonable request but for some reason they are putting a block in front of it. And for Joe Higgins to ask for a stronger Union voice and, under no circumstances a cut in the Public Sector, is not what is needed at the moment in my view.

[quote=“farmerinthecity”]Oh I’m agreeing with you Rocko re wastes of government money. Part of those vast wastes of money, perhaps the largest part in fact, was throwing good money after bad into the HSE, which was literally like throwing it down the drain. Address the structural inefficiencies, address things like performance related pay because despite the fact that you have more numbers, it doesn’t mean that you have a better utilisation of resources and overall a better service.

But the Government can’t do that because the Unions won’t allow it. I don’t know whether that is due to the Government being too chicken shit to face them and take them on, or the Unions rigidly digging their heels in (bit of both I suppose) but our Public Service is overstaffed and inefficient (bit of a general statement I know, some areas worse than other etc).

I am not necessarily advocating a blanket wide cut, but one of the primary things this Government should be doing is addressing it, and addressing aspects which allow underperformers to prosper and draining the state. Perofrmance realted pay (from the bottom to the top) would be a start, zero based budgeting another. I think then you’ll find that there are many people employed in the public sector needlessly.

But the unions won’t allow this. I think it is a perfectly reasonable request but for some reason they are putting a block in front of it. And for Joe Higgins to ask for a stronger Union voice and, under no circumstances a cut in the Public Sector, is not what is needed at the moment in my view.[/QUOTE]

Do you really think that cutting the numbers of people working in the public sector will improve efficiencies there? I don’t disagree with the need for reform in the public sector - just as there is a huge need for reform of certain private enterprises such as audit, tax and advisory services, legal profession, construction, banking etc.

But the solution to those problems isn’t to cut jobs or to cut spending. If the government are unable to deliver what they believe to be an efficient public service then they should step aside and let someone else have a crack at it.

The same old lines about public service inefficiences were rolled out in the 1980s, the last time the country was in a mess. The facts are though that people expect decent public service in this country - it’s not America. We expect decent healthcare, decent education etc. The standard of delivery of those services can be different but in most cases if you talk to someone in a hospital or a school they’ll tell you the problems are not with the staff - they’re with the facilities and lack of resources.

In fact any study of public sector employment among developed countries would show you that we’re consistently below the average employment levels in terms of percentages of the working population and significantly below our nearest neighbours. The notion that we have a bloated public service is a handy distraction for poor-performing governments but it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny and it doesn’t address the fact that inefficiencies in spending are often the fault of bad capital decisions by government and not bloated resources.

[quote=“therock67”]Do you really think that cutting the numbers of people working in the public sector will improve efficiencies there? I don’t disagree with the need for reform in the public sector - just as there is a huge need for reform of certain private enterprises such as audit, tax and advisory services, legal profession, construction, banking etc.

But the solution to those problems isn’t to cut jobs or to cut spending. If the government are unable to deliver what they believe to be an efficient public service then they should step aside and let someone else have a crack at it.

The same old lines about public service inefficiences were rolled out in the 1980s, the last time the country was in a mess. The facts are though that people expect decent public service in this country - it’s not America. We expect decent healthcare, decent education etc. The standard of delivery of those services can be different but in most cases if you talk to someone in a hospital or a school they’ll tell you the problems are not with the staff - they’re with the facilities and lack of resources.

In fact any study of public sector employment among developed countries would show you that we’re consistently below the average employment levels in terms of percentages of the working population and significantly below our nearest neighbours. The notion that we have a bloated public service is a handy distraction for poor-performing governments but it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny and it doesn’t address the fact that inefficiencies in spending are often the fault of bad capital decisions by government and not bloated resources.

[/QUOTE]

Thats not what I said. I said structures need to be put in place so as to ensure efficiencies before money is thrown at departments. If the structures are not there then the money is going into a bottomless pit.

I think if you spoke to people about the health service they would probably say that expenditure is relatively high but what is killing the health service is inefficiencies created and systemic down through years. These need to be addressed and sorted out.

Whoever is responsible for the inefficiencies is irrelevant to be honest they need to be cleaned up and addressed. Get performance related pay in there. If someone is working hard, reward them. If not then cut their pay. This grade scale is a nonsense as well. Length of terms in the civil service ahead of actual ability and work ethic.

But unions do not appear to want to allow this. Why would they they have it cushy. We dont need a stronger Union voice in this county, we need the Unions to be taken on and proper systems to be put into place.

[quote=“farmerinthecity”]Thats not what I said. I said structures need to be put in place so as to ensure efficiencies before money is thrown at departments. If the structures are not there then the money is going into a bottomless pit.

I think if you spoke to people about the health service they would probably say that expenditure is relatively high but what is killing the health service is inefficiencies created and systemic down through years. These need to be addressed and sorted out.

Whoever is responsible for the inefficiencies is irrelevant to be honest they need to be cleaned up and addressed. Get performance related pay in there. If someone is working hard, reward them. If not then cut their pay. This grade scale is a nonsense as well. Length of terms in the civil service ahead of actual ability and work ethic.

But unions do not appear to want to allow this. Why would they they have it cushy. We dont need a stronger Union voice in this county, we need the Unions to be taken on and proper systems to be put into place.[/QUOTE]

Performance related pay is one of the main reasons for the current recession. CEO getting bloated pay rises on artifically inflated share prices etc.

Getting a super efficient public service is cloud cuckoo land. How can you measure how good a school is or how efficient a hospital is etc? In the UK this had led to a shocking education system that looks good on paper but the quality of graduates they produce are among the most ignorant in the western world.

Sure some cuts need to be made and quangos quashed where possible but at the end of the day the quality of public service produced by the sector is the only output worth considering. Slashing budgets without any thought will only reduce the quality of services provided to the public.

[quote=“farmerinthecity”]Thats not what I said. I said structures need to be put in place so as to ensure efficiencies before money is thrown at departments. If the structures are not there then the money is going into a bottomless pit.

I think if you spoke to people about the health service they would probably say that expenditure is relatively high but what is killing the health service is inefficiencies created and systemic down through years. These need to be addressed and sorted out.

Whoever is responsible for the inefficiencies is irrelevant to be honest they need to be cleaned up and addressed. Get performance related pay in there. If someone is working hard, reward them. If not then cut their pay. This grade scale is a nonsense as well. Length of terms in the civil service ahead of actual ability and work ethic.

But unions do not appear to want to allow this. Why would they they have it cushy. We dont need a stronger Union voice in this county, we need the Unions to be taken on and proper systems to be put into place.[/QUOTE]

What expenditure would you cut in the HSE in order to arrive at these efficiencies so? So far, there have been cuts to medical cards and cuts to vaccines. Do you think those decisions by government are a realistic effort at sorting out issues in the HSE or are they a panicking government who have lost control of their budgets and are desparately trying to save on expenditure?

There are savings to be made but I guarantee you the likes of Joe Higgins would be all for cutting down on expenses on prefabs. What he’d suggest instead is a programme of capital expenditure in our schools that would create employment, improve education and provide a long-term solution to a crisis that the govermment hasn’t bothered sorting out for the last couple of decades. That’s the sort of reform of public expenditure that is needed. Not this crusade for cuts that will deliver nothing other than inferior services.

Grades in the civil service are by and large determined by ability, not by length of time in employment. Clerical Officer, Executive Officer, Administrative Officer are all different pay grades and all require exams for admittance and appointments are made on the ability of performance in those exams. In fact, you could argue that there’s too much weight placed on that performance because it reflects ability instead of job performance which is why there are different appointments to levels like Higher Executive Officer etc which are made on the basis of experience and performance.

I think you’re confusing pay increments on length of service (which are offered in nearly every job in every industry) with pay grades. There are increments for being 20 years as a teacher or 20 years as a Clerical Officer the same way that a typist in a law firm won’t be on the same money she started off with 20 years down the line.

[quote=“KIB man”]Performance related pay is one of the main reasons for the current recession. CEO getting bloated pay rises on artifically inflated share prices etc.

Getting a super efficient public service is cloud cuckoo land. How can you measure how good a school is or how efficient a hospital is etc? In the UK this had led to a shocking education system that looks good on paper but the quality of graduates they produce are among the most ignorant in the western world.

Sure some cuts need to be made and quangos quashed where possible but at the end of the day the quality of public service produced by the sector is the only output worth considering. Slashing budgets without any thought will only reduce the quality of services provided to the public.[/QUOTE]

It wasnt performance related pay that caused that, it was the system of measuring the performance. Performance related pay is an excellent tool in ensuring effiencies but youre right, if it is not defined correctly it can be counterproductive.

As it stands, at the moment, there is NOTHING to motivate a person within the Public Sector to carry out a good performance. You are relying on the integrity of the person. That is not right. I am sure some of them look at others in the same area doing nothing and wonder why they are bothering.

I take your point on the schools and the hospitals but how many underperformers are operating within those areas?

And the grade structure for promotions which is essentially based on length of time?

Sure with it come difficulties but for scarce resources to utilised to the maximum then attempts have to be made to put these structures in place.

Panicking government of course that is my essential point. Address the bigger systematic failures within these areas.

I never advocated cuts. I advocated a system that attempts to ensure effiencies. If cuts in employment come as a result of that then so be it.