Further Things That Are Wrong (Part 1)

Difficult cases make bad laws. It is very hard for anyone on this forum to empathise with someone who is looking to transition from man to women and vice versa. I dare say we know no one who is/has or certainly not a loved one or a friend.

I can understand why elite women feel the way they do. Elite athletes dedicate their lives to trying to achieve their goal. When some one deprives them of that goal due to drugs and/or physical advantages inherited as a particular gender, their outrage is understandable.

Should a person who has transitioned be banned from competiting against females in elite sport? On balance, I would say it is the fairest thing to do.

Would be interested to hear what Katelynn Jenner has to say on the matter. Would she have sacrificed her olympic gold medal in order to have transitioned as a female much earlier in life.

It’s a difficult topic, and like others I dont really know what is the right answer.

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Yeah I think that broadly sums up how I feel.

It doesn’t seem right that the best solution is exclusion at elite level but it’s hard to come up with fair alternatives that leave a balanced playing field for competitors.

Fully agree here.

I don’t know of any family or friends that are transitioning.

I’ve a student, who to the best of my knowledge, has transitioned (I’m not sure entirely yet, but she did need to take some time off a few months back for surgery).

I’ve a number of others that identify themselves by other genders (or are non binary)

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To be honest I wouldn’t be particularly interested in what Caitlyn Jenner has to say on any matter, because on the whole I think she’s not a very smart, thoughtful or empathetic person. This view is formed not just through knowledge of her fairly questionable (to say the least) political views but goes back to me becoming aware of the existence of Bruce Jenner through one of those dumb American infomercials that used to get played on television over here in the early 90s. I also think she’s a narcissist.

Just googled it there as was interested in the back story. She doped alright, and suffers health issues now, but hasnt transitioned. Still, can see Davies issues with unfair physical advantages

It definitely mentioned she was transitioning at the time. Perhaps it was being mooted and never followed through.

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Check out a widely used photograph of Lia Thomas, the American transgender swimmer, after she won at a major college event last week — and, according to many, sent women’s sport hurtling towards oblivion.

As Thomas stands on the top step of the podium, she towers over her competitors. They appear to be snubbing her, gathering in a separate trio. It is a stark image of “otherness”.

Philippa York, who as Robert Millar was one of Britain’s finest road cyclists, asks me to look at that photo and the powerful message it sends. “She looks 6ft 10in,” York says. “It’s like the three women are actively avoiding her because she’s a giant, and scary.”
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The truth was rather different. The other women were posing for a separate picture, never expecting to be in the same frame. One of them, Erica Sullivan — an Olympic medallist, who had finished third behind Thomas in the NCAA 500-yard freestyle in Atlanta — went on social media to say that the image distorted reality, and not just in the height differential; that other photos of her warmly congratulating Thomas did not suit the prevailing mood.

Which is? “How many trans-positive stories do you read?” York asks. “If there are 30 trans stories in a week in a newspaper, do you think any are about a happy person fitting well into life?”

She speaks with anger about “hateful” coverage but also with deep concern about the conclusions so many rush to when they hear of Thomas winning a race — “a college race,” she notes, with Thomas nine seconds off Katie Ledecky’s American record — and conclude that the sporting world as we know it is about to end.

“The number of people this is going to involve, you could not fill a room, never mind surround women’s sport,” she says. “If the incidence of people being trans is 1 in 10,000 then figure out the incidence of elite athletes from there.”

It felt important to talk to York before writing about Thomas, and the wider discussion of trans athletes, because how many of us know a trans person? How much do we engage before forming an opinion? How much do we allow a photograph, and single result, like that to shape our views?

“The past few years have been a constant ramping up of the idea that trans people are a threat to society,” York says — meaning sport too. She makes a comparison with mainstream attitudes to homosexuality in the 1980s. “Prejudice and fear of the unknown. Section 28 [which banned ‘the promotion of homosexuality’ by local authorities], that the gay ideology is going to pervert our kids,” she says.

There is a hysteria about trans athletes, she believes, which is almost entirely derived from a couple of high-profile cases: Thomas and Laurel Hubbard, the transgender New Zealand weightlifter, who arrived at the Tokyo Olympics in a blaze of mixed publicity, failed to complete any of her lifts and left with a rather muted hope that the ideals of Olympism and inclusivity had been bolstered when the reality felt more like relief that she had departed the stage so early.

“The ‘scandal’ of Laurel Hubbard, who qualified 16th and finished 16th,” York says. “That was going to be the end of women’s sport.

“We are almost 20 years into the IOC rules [approved in 2004 for transgender athletes to compete]. Since then have there been any medallists at Olympics or world championships? No. Has there been any domination of any sport? No.”

Which does not mean there is not a need for discussion, which is where York and I begin to disagree. The incidence does remain tiny but can governing bodies ignore the issue? Are they not obliged to wrestle with the hugely complex equation of if, and how, fairness for cisgender female athletes and inclusivity (and safety in, say, combat sports) can coexist?

York’s scepticism about scientific findings into the impact of testosterone and, in particular, the lasting benefits of having gone through male puberty even after a transgender woman like Thomas goes through years of hormone treatment, seems to me to collide with a growing pile of evidence that cannot be ignored.

Ross Tucker, the sports scientist who contributed to the decision for women’s international rugby to ban trans players on safety grounds — “even though there aren’t any at international level,” York points out — believes sports are storing up problems for the future if they allow transgender women to compete freely across all disciplines, especially those in which power and strength are critical.

“But it’s all ‘what ifs’,” York counters. “What about what has actually happened? Where are the trans athletes dominating? The NHS has about 160 kids who have access to puberty-blockers. Out of those 160 kids how many do you think are going to become elite athletes? It could be hundreds of years.”

In a debate that is so politicised and polarised, we should ask how often we hear a voice like York’s compared to absurdly fearful stories questioning the motives of those who transition.

“A piece about Lia Thomas walking around with genitalia out,” York says. “You just know it didn’t happen. This issue of ‘where are they going to get changed?’ Just because you are trans does not mean you are going to sexually assault somebody.”

Then there is the implication that, after changes to the Gender Recognition Act, sport will be distorted by increasing numbers of men volunteering to have reduced testosterone for 12 months to sweep up medals in the female category.

“Where are the volunteers?” York asks. “Talk to anyone who has reduced testosterone, never mind to the levels the IOC have set. They are not training three, four hours a day for six, seven days a week. They are knackered, they are depressed. If anyone wants to volunteer for that then go ahead.”

York talks of the profound impact of gender dysphoria, physically and mentally, which many take decades to come to terms with. “When I transitioned, if I never went cycling again I wouldn’t have cared,” she says. “Lia Thomas said she was willing to give up on swimming.”

In the United States, the fact that Thomas is allowed to compete in female events split opinions deeply, even within her own team at the University of Pennsylvania, which she represented for three years as Will. One group of anonymous female team-mates complained that Thomas had a biological advantage which would deny them opportunities.

But when York sees the global fallout from an event in which one transgender swimmer came first, fifth and eighth in her three races, she cannot help but wonder how much deeper this goes than arguments about fairness in a swimming pool. When she sees the distortions of that photograph, it raises questions not just about sport but fear and prejudice.

“The question is not really whether trans athletes can compete,” she says. “It’s, should they exist?”

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Around what age? I’ve no issue with adults transitioning surgically but for kids people seem to think it’s a seamless process but there are serious consequences. Loss of sexual function, incontinence to name a few. Same goes for puberty blockers, the drugs are used off label and can have horrific side effects. In short I think surgical interventions for a mental condition (with regard to kids who may not fully realise what they are in for) may not be in the young person’s best interest. Look up lupron side effects! But shur what would I know!

Early - mid twenties I’m guessing. Hard to put an age on her

It’s really fucking hard to have any sort of reasoned debate on this topic when the likes of Graham Linehan call the experts Nazis.

Sorry, but that has to be mentioned, and in any discussion of this topic, it should always be, because the words of idiots like Linehan are, sadly, responsible for the dominant fear mongering framing of this issue in a media which largely depends on whipping up low information anger for clicks and doesn’t care how their dumb framing of the issues affects the real lives of trans people.

Puberty-pausing medication, known as puberty blockers, are prescribed in order to delay puberty until a trans teenager is old enough to make decisions about having gender-affirming medical treatment.

The treatment has been used for decades and a recent piece of research found that access to the drugs is “life-saving” for trans teenagers.

The landmark study, published in medical journal Pediatrics in January 2020, was the first to look at the impact of access to puberty blockers on suicide risk of trans kids.

The study found that if trans teenagers have access to puberty blockers their chance of suicide and mental health problems significantly declines.

Ah thats fair enough then. Old enough to make their own mind up. Stories from the states of 13 year olds getting masectomies don’t sit well with me and was the gist of my point.

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I don’t know mate, are you being a bit pc there to wind up whoever.?.. Early stages is a full blown man in every way. You being comfortable with a man sharing changing rooms/ toilet with your daughter’s because that person identifies as a woman is one thing, would your daughters or other women feel comfortable with it? It’s not just sports where women might feel invaded or encroached upon, but very basic every day situations like that… My first question was when do we consider someone a female? You can argue that person has always identified as a woman so is one but this is where the reality of the world comes into play. Why should women accept a man in their changing areas in the way you described? Me or you wouldn’t be welcome… Do they pull out a card that shows they are transitioning?
It’s very unfortunate on the person who has been born into the situation. But life isn’t black or white, and this topic is extremely grey. I think most people accept people’s rights to be happy and identify as they like but they may not be happy about the situation I described, or training your whole life as a woman to complete against a physical male…a pure invasion.
If you look at the article the Harry Potter first responded to, it was about ‘people who menstruate’… The only people who menstruate are women. Women menstruate. That’s the very biological definition of what women do. While we can accept some women don’t, Trying to dictate and change the language around such things is another clear invasion of female identity …

It’s a very complicated issue.

You can say it’s easy for Joe soaps like us to call the shots, we’re not suffering like the poor bastards who identify as another gender. But maybe we need to learn to accept trans women as a society first before we tear up definitions of what a woman is…

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But my kids are at risk all day every day, there’s freaks all around us.
If somebody identifies as a female to the point that they’ve begun to transition then have they bo changing room to go into, I suppose not.
I just don’t associate it with deviancy, I don’t believe I’d make a fuss about it, but it hasn’t happened so who knows?

Oh yes, I’d likely follow my wife’s lead in a situation like that though,

Im not a deviant (anymore) should I be allowed into a female changing room? Take the deviancy out if it, should women have to share these spaces with men is what I’m asking? How many would feel comfortable? I don’t know many women who’d feel comfortable with a man in such a situation… Women rarely feel comfortable with other women in such spaces ffs, let alone a man.

I’m not sure we’re on the same page here.
If you as a straight man who identifies as a man (I hate typing that identify thing) were in the ladies changing room that would make you a deviant, so I’d have a huge problem with that.
I’m assuming the person in my scenario is making an attempt to act and look like a woman, otherwise it’s a bit weird and that’s not what I meant to bring up

I think fellas of our generation are just too old to even begin to understand this stuff. I’m not going to bother my hole even thinking about it unless it comes to my doorstep and then I’d like to think then I wouldnt be a cunt to the person in the situation.
It’s kind of similar to how our father’s or even grandfathers feel about gay people. It’s always a bit of a mystery to them but most are open minded enough when it comes to the crunch and they have to confront a family member being gay.

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The whole trans thing is something that I couldn’t even dream to opine on.

I don’t have a view really. It just seems to be another woke viewpoint for people to elaborate about how “good” they are on the internet.

This post reminds me of Ron Atkinson;

"I never comment on referees… and I’m not going to break the habit of a lifetime for that prat!"

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There is no nuance about this issue though. It’s either segregated competition based upon biological sex, or its open competition for all.

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