Crowd should read mob.
By mob I mean the latecomers.
In any case there are far too many facets to this issue to blame any one party.
The FA: for having the game at a ground which previously had problems.
Allocation of the tickets.
The police: failure in crowd control.
The fans: conduct by a minority on the day made it a tragedy.
So a mob caused Bloody Sunday too?
No mob, no protest, no shots fired
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 932251, member: 2272â]Grand so. Why do football matches almost everywhere have crowd control, cordons, gates, turnstiles, tickets, police, stewards when we can just rely on people doing the right thing and exercising personal responsibility
.[/QUOTE]
GAA matches and rugby matches had all the above too palâŚ
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 932260, member: 2272â]So a mob caused Bloody Sunday too?
No mob, no protest, no shots fired[/QUOTE]
FFS, this is what your dealing with
That is my point.
there were injuries on Hill 16 before it was redeveloped
there was a crush in the Aviva shortly after it opened
If you are anywhere in a crowd you are relying on police and the people running the event for your safety because if they make a mistake you can end up in lots of trouble.
There is a theme which runs through all three events, a state narrative which blames the victims, which lies through its teeth under oath, which projects through a willing surrogate media the official line, the official distortion. At Hillsborough, the self same police force which ran riot at Orgreave stood stupid and useless while youngsters died before their eyes, under the command of the same chief of police officer, who dictated the official line. In both cases officers conspired to falsify statements and lie under oath. In Derry and Hillsborough those appointed to judge the veracity of the evidence turned truth upside down and exonerated the criminals while blaming the victims. Widgery was appointed to support the lie, the Hillsborough pathologist and through him the jury may well have been so inclined too.
The Hillsborough families like their Derry counterparts now see some shafts of justice breaking through with the quashing of the verdicts, and reopening of the enquiry and inquest on those events. What will happen when that inquest gets to the point of criminal liability and guilt is hard to guess. Procedurally the inquest should adjourn while criminal charges and a criminal prosecution are made against the chief police officers and any other conspirators responsible, but will it?
What is clear as day is that that Thatcher gave the police, from its ACPO coup; (the defacto creation, of a national political police force), top brass accountable to no-one but themselves, down to the ordinary young thug in a uniform there developed a cultural of impunity. This is what carried the South Yorkshire Force from that field in Orgreave into that field at Hillsborough. Hillsborough was nothing short of a massacre of 96 totally innocent football fans out to watch a dayâs football. Their deaths were barbaric cruel and slow, and took place in front of the gaze of hundreds of officers, blind to what was unfolding before their eyes, convinced they were looking at a pitch invasion. Rescue services and medicâs were blocked from the ground by police orders while people died unnecessarily on the pitch and in dressing rooms on make shift stretchers. To loose ones kids, your lover your friend your husband or wife in such an unnecessary and meaningless way is impossible enough to bare. To have the police, and the inquest declare that the fans were responsible for their own deaths, that police control and management were innocent, rubbed salt into an open wound. Papers like the Sun stoked the injustice with screaming headlines declaring the fans to have been mad drunk, rioting, that they stole from the bodies of their dead mates that they urinated on corpses.
[QUOTE=âcount of monte cristo, post: 932259, member: 348â]Crowd should read mob.
By mob I mean the latecomers.
In any case there are far too many facets to this issue to blame any one party.
The FA: for having the game at a ground which previously had problems.
Allocation of the tickets.
The police: failure in crowd control.
The fans: conduct by a minority on the day made it a tragedy.[/QUOTE]
Iâd agree with that, I guess the fallout is that only one section got all the blame and then the media tried to portray kids as young as ten as drunk hooligans. If there wasnât such a cover up it we us scousers wouldnât be defensive.
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 932260, member: 2272â]So a mob caused Bloody Sunday too?
No mob, no protest, no shots fired[/QUOTE]
Sure you might as well throw in the Stardust fire while youâre at it. The likes of Appendage and that utter simpleton from Clare obviously think the victims there were to blame for their own deaths too.
I also covered this, pal⌠Limerick v Waterford 2001, the authorities made such a fuck up letting people in and the game having started they just opened up one end and let everyone in⌠There was serious panic and crushing as a result but thankfully the gates were opened and hundreds of fans were allowed sit behind the goals⌠They eventually encroached on the pitch such was their numbers. It can happen anywhere .
Thatâs really twisted, the problem is you are still not willing to differentiate between the 10 yo and the ticketless drunken hooligan who pushed him into the fence , thatâs exactly the nub of it tho.
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 932260, member: 2272â]So a mob caused Bloody Sunday too?
No mob, no protest, no shots fired[/QUOTE]
A mob and a crowd are two very different things.
A mob is a group of people acting with a single purpose, May only be 20 people. A crowd is simply a multitude of people gathered in one place*.
*my definition.
Exactly, itâs nigh impossible to converse about it as people get so defensive.
[QUOTE=âdodgy-keeper, post: 932227, member: 1552â]Serious question - are you saying that Liverpool supporters have absolutely no blame whatsoever for what happened on that day? Not an ounce of culpability?
The 96 who died were not responsible. They showed up early and were inadvertantly killed/crushed by those arriving late ticketless and pissed. The police undoubtedly contributed to the tragedy by opening the gates, they made a terrible mistake but they were not to blame totally for the awful events at Hillsborough.
This is not a dig at Liverpool either by the way. Turning up pissed and ticketless was very common in English football at the time. Practically every club did it back then. It could have easily been United or any other clubs fans in the Leppings Lane End that day. Honour the innocent people who died, absolutely they should be remembered, but what irks people is that there is a refusal of anyone associated with Liverpool to accept an ounce of responsibility for what happened on that awful day. âNo, it wasnât us. It was the South Yorkshire Police, it was The Sun, it was Thatcher etc.â
This campaign for Justice is very noble what about the justice for the equally innocent people who died at Heysel? Is it ok they died because they are only greasy wops? Athens was another catastrophe that was only narrowly avoided as mentioned earlier by a first hand witness.[/QUOTE]
An independent enquiry esatblished that Liverpool fans had not an ounce of culpability for what happened. That is fact.
The police did not just âcontributeâ to the tragedy, they caused it. The fact that you say that their fault was solely opening the gate shows you donât have a clue what you are talking about. There was a whole sectton of the stand left vacant and crowds forced down into an already overcrowded area. They failed to act when a problem was seen by the cameras and failed to get emergency care to the injured and dying people quickly enough. Read the fucking report.
As for Heysel, that was a tragedy as well but it has absolutely no relevance to the campaign for Justice for the 96.
[QUOTE=âAppendage, post: 932247, member: 11â]Iâm full of love not hate but itâs bizarre to see posters blindly looking for any way to exonerate blame from a crowd pissed, ticketless clowns (who were late for the game) by dint of the fact that they follow the same football team.
Anyone who had no ticket knew they were in the wrong and shouldnât have been there. Anyone forcing the crowd forward knew they were in the wrong. That the cops mismanaged it is moot really. Personal responsibility has been lost in the discussion here.[/QUOTE]
Will you ever fuck off!
This is not about supporting a football team. This is about police causing the death of 96 people.
They are the facts.
Seriously - do you know anything about what happened that day?
These people donât want facts, Farmer⌠They just want to hate⌠they canât see it transcends football.
I am fed up with arguing with un educated oafs who havenât clue what actually happened in Leppings Lane on 15 April 1989 so I am bowing out.
I believe I said it here before yesterday, thereâs no greater cunt that that @dodgy-keeper on the internet, the fucker is constantly trying to score points off other peoples misery, as if it actually means anything. Since his own brush with death youâd imagine it had given him a new lease on life, but all its done is make the cunt more bitter and filled full of bile and hatred. He is slowly ebbing away into his giant pool of hatred, in which he will eventually drown. Its sad to see, but hopefully his passing will give guidance to others.
Youâre asking a bit much from 2 cops on horseback