Hillsborough

Sport
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Surely to God the fact there were no fatalities in 81 or 87 only reinforces the view that Liverpool “fans” were in some way culpable for what happened that day?

if the same set of circumstances existed when Leeds played and when Wolves were in that end why then did tragedy only occur when Liverpool played? The Sun camapaign and the Thacther governemnt were sick puppies but the Scouse victimhood mentality and refusal to accept anything other than total vindication puts me right off this issue.

Are Scousers genuinely saying if fans hadn’t turned up late, drunk and ticketless that this tragedy would still have happened? Because if so then they lose the shred of credibility they have left and make Boris Johnson look like a sage in the process.

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tricky one pal… maybe put it in the football trivia thread to get the answer…

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This is/was more than football. Let’s all pause for prayer at 16.06- Exactly 25 hours after the 25th anniversary

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/104208097-liverpool-fans-are-crushed-on-the-terraces-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=R4V%2FQay2ANwpmCZhkZDSEg1gKhtudrhNywzW%2BYs7Ks7GkSYkYi7ETyQZsEwN%2Fj%2Be

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@dodgy-keeper[/USER] , [USER=553]@Kid Chocolate[/USER] [USER=11]@Appendage

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It wouldn’t ever happen in Thurles, that’s for sure.

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Those images are harrowing, especially the first one

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Nor Ennis either. That place would blow over if anyone leaned against it.

How anyone can score points on this subject when you look at the pictures Mark just posted is beyond me.

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and why is everyone saying that those liverpool fans responsible were ‘late ticketless drunken hooligans’? There were fans there who were late, but were neither drunk nor ticketless. Fans turned up in time, and had tickets, but all were made go through the one area. There were fans told to go into the leppings lane end who had tickets for other stands, but the cops just ushered them all into the one end and through the one area.

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People will swallow absolutely anything that is told to them by the media.
It doesn’t matter how many facts you present to them afterwards.

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Can’t believe lads are seriously debating this-about 8 pages of heavy hitters getting wound up by @dodgy-keeper[/USER] and [USER=553]@Kid Chocolate . For shame.

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That’s entertainment…

I wasn’t too bothered until @Special Olympiakos came wading in with his facts all over the place. Now i’m fucking livid…

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wonderful scenes in Germany last night :clap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNtuW0NOw-M

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[QUOTE=“Special Olympiakos, post: 932296, member: 366”]
Surely to God the fact there were no fatalities in 81 or 87 only reinforces the view that Liverpool “fans” were in some way culpable for what happened that day?[/QUOTE]
A bizarre view that makes no sense whatsoever and shows an obvious confirmation bias on your part.

Tottenham fans, not Wolves fans, were in the Leppings Lane end in 1981. There was one major difference in 1981. The terrace was not divided into pens by six foot high spiked fences. Thus the crowd could spread out across the width of the terrace which it could not do in 1989.

While the terrace had been divided into pens by the 1987 semi-final, policing and crowd control was more effective on the day than it was in 1989.

http://thehillsboroughdisasterdocumentary.com/2011/11/18/hillsborough-leeds-v-coventry-1987-semi-final/

1989 happened for several reasons. Over 24,000 Liverpool fans having to enter by 23 turnstiles. 10,000 people had to get into the North Stand who would not, normally have had to enter through the Leppings Lane end. The entrance at the Leppings Lane is a natural bottleneck. Have a look on Google Street View. There’s a river cutting diagonally across the back of the stand and the entrance is narrow - it’s not designed to cope with over 24,000 fans.

Do the maths yourself, actually, here, I’ll do them for you. Let’s say 1,000 fans go through each turnstile. If it takes, say five seconds per person to go through a turnstile (and that estimate is likely on the quick side), that’s 12 per minute that get through. For 1,000 people to get through, it would take a minimum of 80 minutes. Given that the majority of fans would not arrive until after 2:00 (an hour before kick-off), a crush outside was inevitable.

There was a lack of any police cordons to stop the build up of people there. The decision not to put the kick-off back added to the sense of panic amongst the crowd. Once the gates had been opened there was nobody there to direct the crowd towards the side pens and nobody to seal off the tunnel to the already over-full central pens. The failure to seal off the tunnel when it was already over-full, well before kick-off, was the worst failure of all. Even afterwards, no emergency was declared, and only 12 victims died in hospital, the rest left to lie in the gymnasium under the main stand.

You’re merely parroting their lies like the good little parrot you are.

There’s a good little parrot.

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Fucking spot on.

@Appendage, who should know better, and other clowns going on about drunk, ticketless fans. That was shown to be a complete exaggeration bordering on a lie in the enquiry.

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[QUOTE=“farmerinthecity, post: 932320, member: 24”]Fucking spot on.

@Appendage, who should know better, and other clowns going on about drunk, ticketless fans. That was shown to be a complete exaggeration bordering on a lie in the enquiry.[/QUOTE]

Bordering on a lie? It’s either a lie or not.

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According to the new 30 for 30 documentary, 1,443 Liverpool supporters would have had to go through each turnstile allocated to them for everybody with a ticket to get in, and it would have taken until 3:40pm for that to happen.

That’s a pretty clear demonstration of how inadequate the arrangements were.

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[QUOTE=“Sidney, post: 932323, member: 183”]According to the new 30 for 30 documentary, 1,443 Liverpool supporters would have had to go through each turnstile allocated to them for everybody with a ticket to get in, and it would have taken until 3:40pm for that to happen.

That’s a pretty clear demonstration of how inadequate the arrangements were.[/QUOTE]

What kind of spoofers made this shite? The lads have already proven there was a last minute surge to get in by drunken louts without tickets.

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[QUOTE=“Sidney, post: 932319, member: 183”]A bizarre view that makes no sense whatsoever and shows an obvious confirmation bias on your part.

Tottenham fans, not Wolves fans, were in the Leppings Lane end in 1981. There was one major difference in 1981. The terrace was not divided into pens by six foot high spiked fences. Thus the crowd could spread out across the width of the terrace which it could not do in 1989.

While the terrace had been divided into pens by the 1987 semi-final, policing and crowd control was more effective on the day than it was in 1989.

http://thehillsboroughdisasterdocumentary.com/2011/11/18/hillsborough-leeds-v-coventry-1987-semi-final/

1989 happened for several reasons. Over 24,000 Liverpool fans having to enter by 23 turnstiles. 10,000 people had to get into the North Stand who would not, normally have had to enter through the Leppings Lane end. The entrance at the Leppings Lane is a natural bottleneck. Have a look on Google Street View. There’s a river cutting diagonally across the back of the stand and the entrance is narrow - it’s not designed to cope with over 24,000 fans.

Do the maths yourself, actually, here, I’ll do them for you. Let’s say 1,000 fans go through each turnstile. If it takes, say five seconds per person to go through a turnstile (and that estimate is likely on the quick side), that’s 12 per minute that get through. For 1,000 people to get through, it would take a minimum of 80 minutes. Given that the majority of fans would not arrive until after 2:00 (an hour before kick-off), a crush outside was inevitable.

There was a lack of any police cordons to stop the build up of people there. The decision not to put the kick-off back added to the sense of panic amongst the crowd. Once the gates had been opened there was nobody there to direct the crowd towards the side pens and nobody to seal off the tunnel to the already over-full central pens. The failure to seal off the tunnel when it was already over-full, well before kick-off, was the worst failure of all. Even afterwards, no emergency was declared, and only 12 victims died in hospital, the rest left to lie in the gymnasium under the main stand.

You’re merely parroting their lies like the good little parrot you are.

There’s a good little parrot.[/QUOTE]

Childish personal attacks don’t do your argument any good. If the circumstances you outlined very well concerning the bottleneck and crowd control pertained in 1989 then they also certainly pertained in 1987.

I’m just amazed at how any enquiry doesn’t concentrate on the different police protocols used in 87 & 89 and make the case from there? if there was widespread devaition then the Scouse victimhood brigade will have a point, but if there isn’t then the only difference between the two set of circumstances has to be the behaviour and practices of the fans on the days in question.

I’ve no axe to grind against LFC as they don’t bother me anymore than any other EPL outfit, they have long since shed their loyalist past and in fact have overtaken Everton as the “Oirish” team in Liverpool now it seems.

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I know what’s not a lie.

That you haven’t an utter clue what you are talking about.

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The information contained in the documentary comes from a report by the UK Health and Safety Executive, who also say that claims that there were large numbers of ticketless fans entering the ground were groundless, as video evidence proves “the amount of people who entered both through the turnstiles and the gate at the Leppings Lane end was not dissimilar from the amount of tickets sold.”