Liverpool FC 2014/15

[QUOTE=“Il Bomber Destro, post: 1004626, member: 2533”]Buffon after Italy’s exit from the World Cup.

"They deserve a bit more respect. When you’re on the field, you’ve got to deliver. It doesn’t matter what you potentially could deliver, or what you might be able to deliver in future – you’ve got to deliver it there and then."

There is speculation that AC Milan forward Mario Balotelli may have been one of the intended recipients of Buffon’s criticism, which he firmed up in an interview with RAI television.[/QUOTE]
Nail on the head from Buffon re Mario.
This is potentially a coup for Liverpool if Mario delivers, something he still hasn’t done yet for any club or country on a consistent basis. More than most transfers however it comes with serious risk attached because the man is clearly a whackjob. Either way it’s difficult to believe he was first on their wishlist for a new striker.
I can see it working out to some degree however, he should fit right in with his ‘Why always me’ persona to a club that has a long and proud tradition of playing the victim card at every turn.

[QUOTE=“Lazarus, post: 1004664, member: 286”]Nail on the head from Buffon re Mario.
This is potentially a coup for Liverpool if Mario delivers, something he still hasn’t done yet for any club or country on a consistent basis. More than most transfers however it comes with serious risk attached because the man is clearly a whackjob. Either way it’s difficult to believe he was first on their wishlist for a new striker.
I can see it working out to some degree however, he should fit right in with his ‘Why always me’ persona to a club that has a long and proud tradition of playing the victim card at every turn.[/QUOTE]
that’s why he is so cheap comparable to the talent

it is a risk but so was Suarez and so was Sturridge. It is the Moneyball way.

Suarez to Barcelona is a bigger risk because of the price - Suarez will be goaded over there and if he snaps then UEFA/FIFA will throw the book at him and he faces a very lengthy ban

[QUOTE=“TheUlteriorMotive, post: 1004666, member: 2272”]that’s why he is so cheap comparable to the talent

it is a risk but so was Suarez and so was Sturridge. It is the Moneyball way.

Suarez to Barcelona is a bigger risk because of the price - Suarez will be goaded over there and if he snaps then UEFA/FIFA will throw the book at him and he faces a very lengthy ban[/QUOTE]
Moneyball? Did those guys ever actually win anything?
If you want to use US sports Aaron Hernandaz might be a better anology

Suarez is a very resilient, professional and hard working player.

Balotelli is mentally weak, unprofessional and lazy. As he has shown to date he only let’s you down, he has came on the scene and to new ventures with big fanfare but coaches, fans and team-mates have all been glad to see the back of him.

He simply can’t be relied upon and his feckless attitude is disgraceful. He’s not a serious player.

[QUOTE=“Lazarus, post: 1004674, member: 286”]Moneyball? Did those guys ever actually win anything?
If you want to use US sports Aaron Hernandaz might be a better anology[/QUOTE]
Red Sox who share the same owners used Moneyball systems

Sturridge is an example of a Moneyball style signing. Coutinho too. Undervalued at their previous clubs.

Balo fits into this type of signing and is risky but the risk is reflected in the price being paid for him

[QUOTE=“Lazarus, post: 1004674, member: 286”]Moneyball? Did those guys ever actually win anything?
If you want to use US sports Aaron Hernandaz might be a better anology[/QUOTE]

The redsox went on to use this system to great effect i believe…

[SIZE=6]Why Moneyball Will Not Work in Soccer[/SIZE]
Posted on June 6, 2012[/URL] by [URL=‘http://worldsoccertalk.com/author/ben-weich/’]Ben Weich

In the last decade, the philosophy known as ‘Moneyball’ has revolutionised the way baseball teams evaluate players. Based on the field of ‘sabermetrics’, the approach is designed to reveal players’ ‘true’ value by judging them solely on their performance-related statistics. Given its remarkable success in baseball, how long will it be before Moneyball becomes common practice in the Premier League?

The use of sabermetrics was pioneered by baseball teams looking for a way to overcome the vast financial inequalities within their sport. The system seeks to identify the most cost-effective players, and so teams who are under the greatest pressure to use their limited resources efficiently have found the greatest use for it. In theory, this makes Moneyball an ideal antidote to the problem of the financial divide between the haves and have-nots of the Premier League. Yes, a salary cap would even things out once and for all, but how likely is that? As far as we can see, the league’s ‘poorer’ teams are going to have to come up with a solution of their own and this could be it.

Due to the subjective nature of player evaluation, there are huge inefficiencies in the football transfer market which are just waiting to be exploited. At the moment, players are valued in a non-scientific way; without using data, clubs are forced to predict their future output through hunches and guesswork. There are thousands of players out there who have been underestimated by the conventional wisdom, and so their true value is greater than their market value. Theoretically, if a system able to accurately predict players’ productivity was discovered, even a club of meagre means could assemble a squad strong enough to challenge for titles. This is the great attraction of Moneyball.

One Premier League club has already tried to implement a sabermetric approach into their transfer market dealings. John W. Henry, owner of Liverpool since late 2010, has already used the Moneyball philosophy to great effect with the Boston Red Sox. It was unsurprising then, that he quickly announced similar plans for the Anfield club upon his arrival. Liverpool have since installed an American-style hierarchy whereby transfers are controlled, in part, by a Director of Football. Damien Comolli, previously of Tottenham Hotspur and Arsenal, was handed the role and proceeded to sign a draft of new players to rebuild the failing club. He claimed to have used a system inspired by sabermetrics in the acquisition of these players, most notably Stewart Downing.

You don’t have to be the most avid follower of English football to know that Liverpool haven’t enjoyed much success with this strategy. After a dismal season, in which an absurd number of their high-profile summer signings flopped, both Comolli and Kenny Dalglish promptly lost their jobs. Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson, Charlie Adam and Downing have quite frankly been awful, especially when you consider the Reds splashed out a combined £78 million on them. Based on the example Liverpool have set, it would be surprising if other clubs were lining up to try their hand at this Moneyball game.

Defenders of sabermetrics may say the problem was that Comolli and Dalglish went about using the system in the wrong way, and they would certainly have a point there. The fundamental ethos of Moneyball is to purchase productive players for less than they are really worth. Comolli and Dalglish did the exact opposite of this; they bought overrated players at enormously inflated prices. The fact that they bought primarily native talent, all of whom came with a ‘British Tax’, is indication enough that they didn’t fully appreciate the aim of the game they were playing.

Regardless, Moneyball, however exciting it may be, will not work in football. It works in baseball because statistics play a much bigger role. Anyone who has ever watched a baseball game will testify to having been bombarded with figures for batting averages, on-base percentages, slugging percentages, earned run averages, strikeouts and walks to name just a few. British viewers tend to find the prevalence of statistics in American sports downright bizarre.

Not only this, but the two sports are, by nature, worlds apart. Football is much more fluid; each player’s performance is dependent on the play of others. A striker can’t score unless he is provided with service from supporting players. A goalkeeper can’t keep a clean sheet without the help of his defence in front of him. Baseball, on the other hand, is a more structured game. Each play follows the same basic format and results in players being either credited or debited. This means that statistics can measure individual performances more accurately and each player’s worth can be judged more precisely.

The statistical evidence which supposedly justified Stewart Downing’s £20 million signature is reason enough to disregard the potential role for sabermetrics in football. In his final season at Aston Villa, Downing completed 24% of his crosses, an impressive number. He also made nine assists that season which, compared to teammate Ashley Young’s 11, suggested he would have a reasonably productive first season for Liverpool. However, statistics in football are ultimately misleading and largely irrelevant. While Young had a respectable debut season at Manchester United, Stewart Downing’s stat line read: 36 appearances, zero goals, zero assists. A fitting quote here is one from the Danish former player and manager, Ebbe Skovdahl: “Statistics are just like miniskirts – they give you good ideas but hide the most important things”.

Football, unlike baseball, isn’t about the raw numbers; it’s about how players gel and complement each other. In a baseball team you can, in most cases, take out a player and replace him with a superior one without issue, regardless of the team’s playing style and tactics. The same cannot be said of football.

That’s why we won’t see owners of Premier League clubs turning to statisticians and number-crunchers anytime soon, as is the norm in Major League Baseball. Although most fans would love to see something (anything!) to help football’s underdogs level the playing field, unfortunately it won’t be Moneyball.

Read more at http://worldsoccertalk.com/2012/06/06/why-moneyball-will-not-work-in-soccer/#1lu7C8ecQqcfFKTa.99

[QUOTE=“TheUlteriorMotive, post: 1004677, member: 2272”]Red Sox who share the same owners used Moneyball systems

Sturridge is an example of a Moneyball style signing. Coutinho too. Undervalued at their previous clubs.

Balo fits into this type of signing and is risky but the risk is reflected in the price being paid for him[/QUOTE]

He’s not a reliable player, he’s got zero character.

Dr Steve will sort out Balo. Dr Steve’s book (The Chimp Paradox) explains why people behave the way they do - it is worth a read actually

Once Suarez was out of the cocoon he relapsed.

[QUOTE=“Lazarus, post: 1004681, member: 286”][SIZE=6]Why Moneyball Will Not Work in Soccer[/SIZE]
Posted on June 6, 2012[/URL] by [URL=‘http://worldsoccertalk.com/author/ben-weich/’]Ben Weich

In the last decade, the philosophy known as ‘Moneyball’ has revolutionised the way baseball teams evaluate players. Based on the field of ‘sabermetrics’, the approach is designed to reveal players’ ‘true’ value by judging them solely on their performance-related statistics. Given its remarkable success in baseball, how long will it be before Moneyball becomes common practice in the Premier League?

The use of sabermetrics was pioneered by baseball teams looking for a way to overcome the vast financial inequalities within their sport. The system seeks to identify the most cost-effective players, and so teams who are under the greatest pressure to use their limited resources efficiently have found the greatest use for it. In theory, this makes Moneyball an ideal antidote to the problem of the financial divide between the haves and have-nots of the Premier League. Yes, a salary cap would even things out once and for all, but how likely is that? As far as we can see, the league’s ‘poorer’ teams are going to have to come up with a solution of their own and this could be it.

Due to the subjective nature of player evaluation, there are huge inefficiencies in the football transfer market which are just waiting to be exploited. At the moment, players are valued in a non-scientific way; without using data, clubs are forced to predict their future output through hunches and guesswork. There are thousands of players out there who have been underestimated by the conventional wisdom, and so their true value is greater than their market value. Theoretically, if a system able to accurately predict players’ productivity was discovered, even a club of meagre means could assemble a squad strong enough to challenge for titles. This is the great attraction of Moneyball.

One Premier League club has already tried to implement a sabermetric approach into their transfer market dealings. John W. Henry, owner of Liverpool since late 2010, has already used the Moneyball philosophy to great effect with the Boston Red Sox. It was unsurprising then, that he quickly announced similar plans for the Anfield club upon his arrival. Liverpool have since installed an American-style hierarchy whereby transfers are controlled, in part, by a Director of Football. Damien Comolli, previously of Tottenham Hotspur and Arsenal, was handed the role and proceeded to sign a draft of new players to rebuild the failing club. He claimed to have used a system inspired by sabermetrics in the acquisition of these players, most notably Stewart Downing.

You don’t have to be the most avid follower of English football to know that Liverpool haven’t enjoyed much success with this strategy. After a dismal season, in which an absurd number of their high-profile summer signings flopped, both Comolli and Kenny Dalglish promptly lost their jobs. Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson, Charlie Adam and Downing have quite frankly been awful, especially when you consider the Reds splashed out a combined £78 million on them. Based on the example Liverpool have set, it would be surprising if other clubs were lining up to try their hand at this Moneyball game.

Defenders of sabermetrics may say the problem was that Comolli and Dalglish went about using the system in the wrong way, and they would certainly have a point there. The fundamental ethos of Moneyball is to purchase productive players for less than they are really worth. Comolli and Dalglish did the exact opposite of this; they bought overrated players at enormously inflated prices. The fact that they bought primarily native talent, all of whom came with a ‘British Tax’, is indication enough that they didn’t fully appreciate the aim of the game they were playing.

Regardless, Moneyball, however exciting it may be, will not work in football. It works in baseball because statistics play a much bigger role. Anyone who has ever watched a baseball game will testify to having been bombarded with figures for batting averages, on-base percentages, slugging percentages, earned run averages, strikeouts and walks to name just a few. British viewers tend to find the prevalence of statistics in American sports downright bizarre.

Not only this, but the two sports are, by nature, worlds apart. Football is much more fluid; each player’s performance is dependent on the play of others. A striker can’t score unless he is provided with service from supporting players. A goalkeeper can’t keep a clean sheet without the help of his defence in front of him. Baseball, on the other hand, is a more structured game. Each play follows the same basic format and results in players being either credited or debited. This means that statistics can measure individual performances more accurately and each player’s worth can be judged more precisely.

The statistical evidence which supposedly justified Stewart Downing’s £20 million signature is reason enough to disregard the potential role for sabermetrics in football. In his final season at Aston Villa, Downing completed 24% of his crosses, an impressive number. He also made nine assists that season which, compared to teammate Ashley Young’s 11, suggested he would have a reasonably productive first season for Liverpool. However, statistics in football are ultimately misleading and largely irrelevant. While Young had a respectable debut season at Manchester United, Stewart Downing’s stat line read: 36 appearances, zero goals, zero assists. A fitting quote here is one from the Danish former player and manager, Ebbe Skovdahl: “Statistics are just like miniskirts – they give you good ideas but hide the most important things”.

Football, unlike baseball, isn’t about the raw numbers; it’s about how players gel and complement each other. In a baseball team you can, in most cases, take out a player and replace him with a superior one without issue, regardless of the team’s playing style and tactics. The same cannot be said of football.

That’s why we won’t see owners of Premier League clubs turning to statisticians and number-crunchers anytime soon, as is the norm in Major League Baseball. Although most fans would love to see something (anything!) to help football’s underdogs level the playing field, unfortunately it won’t be Moneyball.

Read more at http://worldsoccertalk.com/2012/06/06/why-moneyball-will-not-work-in-soccer/#1lu7C8ecQqcfFKTa.99[/QUOTE]
Any argument about Moneyball that references Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson, Charlie Adam and Downing as examples is flawed ab initio and can be dismissed. They were all regarded as players on the up with no particular issues - Carroll’s price was not a price factoring in risk etc - all players coming from smaller clubs to Liverpool at inflated fees

[QUOTE=“TheUlteriorMotive, post: 1004686, member: 2272”]Dr Steve will sort out Balo. Dr Steve’s book (The Chimp Paradox) explains why people behave the way they do - it is worth a read actually

Once Suarez was out of the cocoon he relapsed.[/QUOTE]

Suarez was a terrific professional. Balotelli is a self absorbed cunt.

[QUOTE=“Lazarus, post: 1004681, member: 286”][SIZE=6]Why Moneyball Will Not Work in Soccer[/SIZE]
Posted on June 6, 2012[/URL] by [URL=‘http://worldsoccertalk.com/author/ben-weich/’]Ben Weich

In the last decade, the philosophy known as ‘Moneyball’ has revolutionised the way baseball teams evaluate players. Based on the field of ‘sabermetrics’, the approach is designed to reveal players’ ‘true’ value by judging them solely on their performance-related statistics. Given its remarkable success in baseball, how long will it be before Moneyball becomes common practice in the Premier League?

The use of sabermetrics was pioneered by baseball teams looking for a way to overcome the vast financial inequalities within their sport. The system seeks to identify the most cost-effective players, and so teams who are under the greatest pressure to use their limited resources efficiently have found the greatest use for it. In theory, this makes Moneyball an ideal antidote to the problem of the financial divide between the haves and have-nots of the Premier League. Yes, a salary cap would even things out once and for all, but how likely is that? As far as we can see, the league’s ‘poorer’ teams are going to have to come up with a solution of their own and this could be it.

Due to the subjective nature of player evaluation, there are huge inefficiencies in the football transfer market which are just waiting to be exploited. At the moment, players are valued in a non-scientific way; without using data, clubs are forced to predict their future output through hunches and guesswork. There are thousands of players out there who have been underestimated by the conventional wisdom, and so their true value is greater than their market value. Theoretically, if a system able to accurately predict players’ productivity was discovered, even a club of meagre means could assemble a squad strong enough to challenge for titles. This is the great attraction of Moneyball.

One Premier League club has already tried to implement a sabermetric approach into their transfer market dealings. John W. Henry, owner of Liverpool since late 2010, has already used the Moneyball philosophy to great effect with the Boston Red Sox. It was unsurprising then, that he quickly announced similar plans for the Anfield club upon his arrival. Liverpool have since installed an American-style hierarchy whereby transfers are controlled, in part, by a Director of Football. Damien Comolli, previously of Tottenham Hotspur and Arsenal, was handed the role and proceeded to sign a draft of new players to rebuild the failing club. He claimed to have used a system inspired by sabermetrics in the acquisition of these players, most notably Stewart Downing.

You don’t have to be the most avid follower of English football to know that Liverpool haven’t enjoyed much success with this strategy. After a dismal season, in which an absurd number of their high-profile summer signings flopped, both Comolli and Kenny Dalglish promptly lost their jobs. Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson, Charlie Adam and Downing have quite frankly been awful, especially when you consider the Reds splashed out a combined £78 million on them. Based on the example Liverpool have set, it would be surprising if other clubs were lining up to try their hand at this Moneyball game.

Defenders of sabermetrics may say the problem was that Comolli and Dalglish went about using the system in the wrong way, and they would certainly have a point there. The fundamental ethos of Moneyball is to purchase productive players for less than they are really worth. Comolli and Dalglish did the exact opposite of this; they bought overrated players at enormously inflated prices. The fact that they bought primarily native talent, all of whom came with a ‘British Tax’, is indication enough that they didn’t fully appreciate the aim of the game they were playing.

Regardless, Moneyball, however exciting it may be, will not work in football. It works in baseball because statistics play a much bigger role. Anyone who has ever watched a baseball game will testify to having been bombarded with figures for batting averages, on-base percentages, slugging percentages, earned run averages, strikeouts and walks to name just a few. British viewers tend to find the prevalence of statistics in American sports downright bizarre.

Not only this, but the two sports are, by nature, worlds apart. Football is much more fluid; each player’s performance is dependent on the play of others. A striker can’t score unless he is provided with service from supporting players. A goalkeeper can’t keep a clean sheet without the help of his defence in front of him. Baseball, on the other hand, is a more structured game. Each play follows the same basic format and results in players being either credited or debited. This means that statistics can measure individual performances more accurately and each player’s worth can be judged more precisely.

The statistical evidence which supposedly justified Stewart Downing’s £20 million signature is reason enough to disregard the potential role for sabermetrics in football. In his final season at Aston Villa, Downing completed 24% of his crosses, an impressive number. He also made nine assists that season which, compared to teammate Ashley Young’s 11, suggested he would have a reasonably productive first season for Liverpool. However, statistics in football are ultimately misleading and largely irrelevant. While Young had a respectable debut season at Manchester United, Stewart Downing’s stat line read: 36 appearances, zero goals, zero assists. A fitting quote here is one from the Danish former player and manager, Ebbe Skovdahl: “Statistics are just like miniskirts – they give you good ideas but hide the most important things”.

Football, unlike baseball, isn’t about the raw numbers; it’s about how players gel and complement each other. In a baseball team you can, in most cases, take out a player and replace him with a superior one without issue, regardless of the team’s playing style and tactics. The same cannot be said of football.

That’s why we won’t see owners of Premier League clubs turning to statisticians and number-crunchers anytime soon, as is the norm in Major League Baseball. Although most fans would love to see something (anything!) to help football’s underdogs level the playing field, unfortunately it won’t be Moneyball.

Read more at http://worldsoccertalk.com/2012/06/06/why-moneyball-will-not-work-in-soccer/#1lu7C8ecQqcfFKTa.99[/QUOTE]

The signings mentioned have nothing to do with moneyball, they are the antithesis of them in fact.

I accept the articles main premise that stats are tough in football though. Take his successful crosses stat, is that thanks to the crosser or the guy in the box getting on the end of it, are crosses into the box to be valued more highly than say a ground pass into the box or a player carrying it into the box himself, etc, etc.

Stats in football are a relatively recent phenomenon as well whereas stats have been widely used in baseball since pre 1900’s.
Even at that, the premise of moneyball was that they were valuing the completely wrong stats like say number of home runs.
Its possible that football statisticians aren’t even measuring the key stat at the minute.

Eto’o as well?

Yes.

They did and didnt really, they still had one of the top three payrolls in baseball throughout most of their period of success, they paid over the odds for players, good and bad but they did go heavy into sabremetrics regarding how players were selected. But that had more to do with the realisation that baseball players were previously being incorrectly rated due to archaic methods, now after bill james and am ‘moneyball’ they are ranked more accurately relating to their true worth. As the article above says, it’s impossible to quantify the same individual production in soccer.

Eto’o is a fall back if the mario deal doesnt go through.

Seems like balotelli is putting his money down to prove himself: hes gonna be on 70 k less per week tgan he was in milan

Graeme souness says he wouldnt sign balotelli that seals it for me; bring on super mario!

Probably doesn’t like him as he refused to answer a question from his beloved Sun.

Sure souness can spot a player, remember george weahs cousin, torben piechnik, julian dicks, nigel clough, boumsong amongst others