Leeds’s decline had begun before Venables took over. All their big players wanted out of the club and the situation was to a large extent at least, beyond his control. It goes down as a failure on his CV but then again plenty of good managers have failed in jobs for one reason or another.
Venables wasn’t the manager. That would be like blaming Bobby Robson for Ireland not qualifying when Staunton was the manager.
Martin O’Neill is a busted flush if you’re to apply the same criteria as to Venables as he has ultimately failed in his last two managerial jobs, while Giovanni Trapattoni’s tenure in charge of Italy was not a success.
Jack Charlton walked out on Newcastle after a year in charge before he took the Ireland job.
[quote=“Sidney, post: 854435, member: 183”]Leeds’s decline had begun before Venables took over. All their big players wanted out of the club and the situation was to a large extent at least, beyond his control. It goes down as a failure on his CV but then again plenty of good managers have failed in jobs for one reason or another.
[/quote]
You seem to be excusing his utter failure on the sideline completely on the fact that Leeds were in decline anyway. Venables made terrible decision after terrible decison throughout games with cowardly tactics which were very much in his control. He was a disaster regardless of what was going on around him at the club.
[quote=“Sidney, post: 854416, member: 183”]Ah here, you think the German team of 1996 was ordinary?
Venables got England playing excellent and attractive football, went closer than any England manager has gone to winning the European Championship and thumped the shit out of a gifted Dutch team containing most of the Ajax team that had won the Champions League.
His management record is, overall, pretty good and his man-management skills would more than likely have eliminated the type of communication problems which plagued the Trapattoni era.[/quote]
They played good football alright. Roy Evans had Liverpool playing fantastic football in the mid 90s and where did that get him?
Venables advocates seem to be living off that match against Holland. As I have already said, he had the players and Shearer and Sheringham in particular were awesome that night. What about the opening draw against the might of Switzerland or did you conveniently forget that?
Just because he went closer than any other England team in a European Championship means jack shit. Maybe the other managers were worse, maybe they didn’t have as good of players but it is a moot point. I still stand by my statement that his record with England is very overstated.
Exactly which games were these cowardly tactics employed in, given that Leeds finished sixth highest scorers in the league despite finishing 15th?
I’d respectfully suggest that not many managers would have done too much better given that Ferdinand, Keane, Fowler, Bowyer and Woodgate were all sold against his will to cut costs.
Batty was pretty much finished as a player by that stage.
Switzerland, Scotland and Spain all played England off the park in Euro 96. Gary McAllister missed a penalty when Scotland were 1-0 down in the 2nd half and on top.
El tel was given lots of money at Tottenham and it translated to one 3rd place and one FA Cup in 4 years. His only real success was winning La Liga with Barcelona which is an achievement which can’t be taken away from him. Soured somewhat by losing the EC final in Spain the following year to rank outsiders Steau Bucharest.
[quote=“farmerinthecity, post: 854453, member: 24”]They played good football alright. Roy Evans had Liverpool playing fantastic football in the mid 90s and where did that get him?
Venables advocates seem to be living off that match against Holland. As I have already said, he had the players and Shearer and Sheringham in particular were awesome that night. What about the opening draw against the might of Switzerland or did you conveniently forget that?
Just because he went closer than any other England team in a European Championship means jack shit. Maybe the other managers were worse, maybe they didn’t have as good of players but it is a moot point. I still stand by my statement that his record with England is very overstated.[/quote]
Do you think England performed well in the tournament and could conceivably have won it but for for losing on penalties?
Do you think Venables had anything to do with that at all?
Do you think that Guus Hiddink’s record as a manager is very overstated given that he was the manager of Holland in 1996 when England thrashed them, failed to qualify Russia for a World Cup and also failed with Turkey and failed at Real Madrid?
[quote=“Sidney, post: 854457, member: 183”]Exactly which games were these cowardly tactics employed in, given that Leeds finished sixth highest scorers in the league despite finishing 15th?
I’d respectfully suggest that not many managers would have done too much better given that Ferdinand, Keane, Fowler, Bowyer and Woodgate were all sold against his will to cut costs.
Batty was pretty much finished as a player by that stage.[/quote]
There were numerous games. Offhand, Charlton & Middleborough at home, Chelsea away were all games which Leeds started well in and took the lead only for Venables to change tact straight away and shut up shop only to lose the lead and the game.
I would also think that the stat above about goals scored is somewhat flawed given that Leeds scored a shitload of goals from March onwards when Eddie Grey took over
I would also think that the stat above about goals scored is somewhat flawed given that Leeds scored a shitload of goals from March onwards when Eddie Grey took over[/quote]
A quick google search tells me that Leeds Scored 58 goals in 38 games in the 2003/2003 season. 21 of which were scored in the last 8 games of the season after.
37 goals in 30 games under El Tel
21 in 8 under Gray
[quote=“chewy louie, post: 854464, member: 1137”]There were numerous games. Offhand, Charlton & Middleborough at home, Chelsea away were all games which Leeds started well in and took the lead only for Venables to change tact straight away and shut up shop only to lose the lead and the game.
I would also think that the stat above about goals scored is somewhat flawed given that Leeds scored a shitload of goals from March onwards when Eddie Grey took over[/quote]
Most teams would shut up shop at Chelsea, so that’s basically two games where negative tactics were used.
They were already well on course to outscore most of the teams around them by the time Venables left.
I’m not trying to make out Venables would have been some sort of football messiah with Ireland, far from it, but a casual dismissal of his credentials just seems to me to be most likely based on a personal dislike of the man and/or because certain journalists who people dislike said he had the job.
Do you think Venables would have caused or run into the type of communication difficulties that Trapattoni did? I find that highly unlikely as he has an excellent record as a man-manager.
Middlesbrough were bottom of the table when Venables took over as joint manager in December 2000 but only lost four more matches that season and finished 8 points above the relegation zone in 14th.
[quote=“Sidney, post: 854466, member: 183”]Most teams would shut up shop at Chelsea, so that’s basically two games where negative tactics were used.
They were already well on course to outscore most of the teams around them by the time Venables left.
I’m not trying to make out Venables would have been some sort of football messiah with Ireland, far from it, but a casual dismissal of his credentials just seems to me to be most likely based on a personal dislike of the man and/or because certain journalists who people dislike said he had the job.
Do you think Venables would have caused or run into the type of communication difficulties that Trapattoni did? I find that highly unlikely as he has an excellent record as a man-manager.[/quote]
Negative tactics were used in most games as any Leeds fan at the time will tell you, the longer the season went on the worse it got. Again you seem to be missing the offhand bit of my response, they are there that I recall that were defeats that were completely his doing, there were many more poor performances during his time there. Leeds barely won a game in his last three months at the club and the football and negative tactics became worse and worse as the confidence was stripped from the players, offfield matters compounded this but Venables was found out in a big way in his time there.
I have no problem with pragmatic or cagey football whatsoever but the way Venables went about it was terrible and he lost the players and the fans long before he was sacked.
I have no real dislike of Terry Venables but he looked very much like yesterdays man at Leeds United. You can dress it up whatever way you want and blame the offfield goings on to excuse his performance there but that simply isn’t what happened
[quote=“Sidney, post: 854462, member: 183”]Do you think England performed well in the tournament and could conceivably have won it but for for losing on penalties?
Do you think Venables had anything to do with that at all?
Do you think that Guus Hiddink’s record as a manager is very overstated given that he was the manager of Holland in 1996 when England thrashed them, failed to qualify Russia for a World Cup and also failed with Turkey and failed at Real Madrid?[/quote]
As I said I think their performance was overstated. They should have been beaten by Spain in the quarters - a couple of very dodgy offside calls against Julio Salinas.
Not sure where you are going with the Hiddink argument but I would have said he is overrated as a manager for the reasons you describe above.
I have no real dislike of Terry Venables but he looked very much like yesterdays man at Leeds United. You can dress it up whatever way you want and blame the offfield goings on to excuse his performance there but that simply isn’t what happened[/quote]
But clearly the off-field goings on did have something to do with it. To claim that Venables’ tenure at Leeds was a success would be rather foolish because it clearly wasn’t but to claim that the off-field goings on had nothing to do with it is also foolish. Leeds were forced to sell or loan out six of their top players in his time there. To expect any manager to be a success against that background is asking a hell of a lot.
Leeds’ difficulties today and for well over a decade now clearly stem overwhelmingly from disastrous financial decisions made by Peter Ridsdale circa 1999/2000, and not from the failings of any individual manager.
I never claimed that. Venables had a tough job no doubt but his failings should not be excused on the back of the off field goings on which is what you did in your first post. He did a very poor job there and on the field they were as big a shambles come the end of his tenure
I said it goes down as a failure on his CV. Would I totally excuse him for Leeds’ poor performances that season? Defintely not. But I would have recognised that there were mitigating circumstances which worked against him and would have given him the benefit of the doubt as to whether he could have ever made a success of a managerial job again, perhaps not at club level, but possibly at international level. At 65 he would have been young enough to give the Ireland job a decent shot up to this campaign, in my view, certainly at least as good as Trapattoni did.
I would like to have seen Glenn Hoddle been given a go by the FAI. At least he would play the way Giles and Dunphy want and then we would see if we have the players or not.
It always interesting to look back at the people who were linked with the irish job and see how they got on afterwards. When Mick McCarthy got it. There was Kevin Moran, Bryan Robson and I think Mike Walker. None set the world alight after.
