You cannot unequivocally support Ukraine without being unequivocal about supporting them as they fight this war.
I support arming Ukraine to the absolute maximum to help them achieve total victory, whatever it takes, for as long as it takes.
I support Ireland taking in as many Ukrainian refugees as are able to come here.
I do not have any tolerance for intelligence insulting, bullshit Putinist narratives about Ukraine.
You fail on all these counts. Not unequivocally supporting Ukraine, spreading bullshit Putinist narratives, calling for moves that would hamper the Ukrainian resistance - which you do - is the same as supporting Russia. Itâs just less honest than those who are up front about their support for Russia.
You believe all those who unequivocally support Ukraine are âvulgarâ.
We have slowed down the intake of refugees. Theyâve always been going elsewhere. None of that is controversial. It was a discussion worth having in the midst of our own crises.
Weâve stopped taking in other refugees altogether, which you said was illegal another point you ignored so you could build strawmen and lie.
You want unregulated migration across all of Europe. To me that is far more controversial and stupid.
Ireland is constitutionally neutral. I donât think we should be providing military support to anyone, if you think our constitution stands for anything youâd surely agree?
France, Germany, the United Kingdom etc have and can provide military support and more power to them, fair play. Fully agreed. It shouldnât be done through an EU mechanism, in my opinion
It could be argued that EU was cosily wrapped up in Putins pocket as the dependence on his Energy supplies drove its economy.
Kind of like an overstocked Dairy farmer was basing his business on a cheap abundance of Fertiliser to grow grass.
Once this Fertiliser blew up in price in the past 18 months the average Farmer realised his profits margins changed massively.
My point is, could the EU be trusted to sort it out considering Putins involvement is so many different pots across the Continent?
Sorry i though it was but we are a declared neutral state. Do you think neutral states should be providing arms?
I donât think just accepting another military alliance in world politics and supporting Ukraine have anything in common. The arms and funds could be delivered without creating another military alliance. As it has done for other conflicts. Again that isnât controversial or doesnât convey a lack of support for the Ukraine.
Weâre largely in agreement on the support but in the weeds on the means of getting them there
Again, you unequivocally support them, the exact same way i do, by doing fuck all.
Being morally outraged or indignant in a debate does fuck all for them my friend.
Irelandâs neutrality means we donât join a military alliance (like NATO). Thatâs all. Itâs a government policy.
Another military alliance hasnât been created. EU countries have come together to support Ukraine. It is more effective to provide support in a coordinated manner, itâs one of the benefits of the EU across a whole range of things. I think this is a good thing.
The European Unions decision to change its stance and offer protection to a non EU country is unprecedented and gives them the power to do so in the future where ever it sees fit. This has been outlined in the resources I provided to you.
Iâve very rarely ever seen power handed back.
EU and NATO are now operating independently of one another, in a military capacity. That isnât good, in my opinion.
Independent states and NATO can provide as much support as they want but I fundamentally disagree with the policy
How can adding another layer of beurocracy on top of how individual states provide support make things better or faster, anyway?
Since Glas tried to bring in a stupid comparison between Ireland and Ukraine in relation to the IMF⌠And @Tim_Riggins maintains that former bloc countries are delighted with the EU/IMF since they left USSRâŚ
Why are Poland and Hungry now starting to regret their membership of the EU? EU scepticism is growing right across Europe as a result of the last crash and austerity placed on many EU countries.
When your politics become ensnared in an neoliberal economic ideology then resentment sets in. Politics should be a separate issue to corporate interests. Weâre saw this in Ukraine also where neoliberal ideology was being forced on Ukraine by the IMF/World bank despite the population not wanting it.
again the guardian⌠but europe will lead us all to freedom and prosperity (apparently), there are far right and far left parties gaining support all over the bloc
The EU and itâs neoliberal ideology will be a much more welcome house than Russia for sure. But itâs important that we can check these institutions and their intentions⌠Thatâs democracy after all.
The European Union is us. It helps if you look at it that way. It hasnât acted outside of its remit in any way.
I donât know what you mean about the EU and NATO acting indepently of each other not being good means. Theyâre separate organisations for separate things. They do coordinate and cooperate in some small areas.
Independent states are providing support, Ireland is up to 55 million allocated now. Weâre doing it together.
I wonât pretend to know much about military logistics, but suffice to say itâs complicated. Ukraine has various needs and asks, they change as time goes on. It would be very difficult for Ukraine to be in contact with with dozens of different countries to organise assistance, the logistics of getting it there, how they receive it, train their staff. If countries acted independently it would create huge problems. What if we all sent them guns and no one sent bullets etc etc. Thatâs why EU countries acting together in a coordinated way is far more effective (as it has been in lots of other areas Iâd say). In addition to EU countries working together I understand the US chairs or organises a bigger group to coordinate and assist the delivery of military assistance. It seems that the countries assisting Ukraine (âthe westâ I suppose) have done a great job on this so far.
of course it will but it has to be done slowly, methodically and calculated. weâre on the verge of a global conflict here.
Someone asked about ethnic Russians in Ukraine earlier. your heart would go out to them, they see the West encroaching on their belief system and way of life , they look back to the motherland and see Putin rolling tanks over their houses. Theyâre fucked. Iâm not talking about hardline separatists either, just normal people going about their lives
but isnât that not what NATO is there for is my whole point? why do the EU as an alliance feel the need to do it? Allocate the funds through existing mechanisms without doing this, both through individual states and existing alliances. Theyâve all done it before, why the sudden shift?
The EU now has the precedent and means to do this for any conflict it sees fit in the future? Do you not find that concerning?
Itâs also a way of keeping the military budget in house, so to speak. Now thatâs cynical but not untrue, you can see from the quotes in here
Presenting the plan in Brussels, EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell noted that Europe buys some 60 percent of its military capabilities from outside the bloc, declaring: âItâs too much. We must reduce our dependence on the outside world.â
Internal Market Commissioner Thierry Breton said that âwe have to indeed ensure that these investments, funded by the European taxpayers ⌠should benefit first and foremost European industry wherever that is possible.â
thereâs a strawman there to be built about imperialism yadda yadda but I donât think it would benefit the debate and it would be a bit petty. Doesnât seem to stop some fellas
No, NATO is a different organisation, despite the crossover in membership. Thatâs not what it does to my knowledge. And leaving it up to NATO isnât good enough (from most peopleâs perspective anyway).
Why does the EU collectively feel the need to do it? Because war is on its border? Because itâs the right thing to do? Because it needs to be relevant in the world? Iâm sure thereâs more.
The mechanisms the EU is using are existing mechanisms. They were already agreed and in place. Then this war happened and the facility was mobilised.
I get the impression you see the EU as separate, apart, acting independently. Itâs not. The decisions were made by the council of the EU, thatâs all of the governments deciding together. Including Ireland. We decided, not the EU decided.
For me I donât find it concerning, no. I think itâs a good thing that we are responding coherently to whatâs happening in the world.