donât shoot the messenger - the parallels between the Church and the 'RA are striking
"BY the time that I murdered Flanagan doubts were already forming in my mind about the real nature of the Provisional IRA. IRA volunteers in Tyrone were on the whole far more sectarian than I was or ever could be. Their Catholicism was of a virulent and hate-filled brand. It is, in retrospect, hard to see how it could have been otherwise. Militant Irish nationalism and Irish Catholicism have a deep and complex relationship, nowhere more so than in rural areas of Northern Ireland like Tyrone, Fermanagh, and Armagh."
donât shoot the messenger - the parallels between the Church and the 'RA are striking
"BY the time that I murdered Flanagan doubts were already forming in my mind about the real nature of the Provisional IRA. IRA volunteers in Tyrone were on the whole far more sectarian than I was or ever could be. Their Catholicism was of a virulent and hate-filled brand. It is, in retrospect, hard to see how it could have been otherwise. Militant Irish nationalism and Irish Catholicism have a deep and complex relationship, nowhere more so than in rural areas of Northern Ireland like Tyrone, Fermanagh, and Armagh."
former IRA chief Sean OâCallaghan.[/QUOTE]
OâCallaghan? Really? You are quoting some home tout down in Kerry with a track record of talking nonsense as a source.
[QUOTE=âWatch The Break, post: 1035059, member: 260â]Comparing this to the history of abuse within the church is facile, itâs not tenable in the face of even the most basic analysis. To offer just one small point of distinction, the Catholic Church was not involved in a military conflict with the Irish state. At least not to the best of my knowledge.
This persistent decontextualisation of Sinn Feinâs activities in the North is maddening. Iâve always criticised the IRA campaign and would not regard myself as a nationalist at all, but to blithely ignore the bitter historical conflict within which Northern nationalists were embedded is as intellectually dishonest as it is idiotic.
Whether you supported the campaign or not, surely you have to recognise that it was a unique set of circumstances and that any events or actions have to be considered in that context. What makes the hypocrisy so especially galling is that the two major political parties in Southern politics emerged from a period that was itself an episode of the historical conflict from which the current manifestation of Sinn Fein emerged.
And far from seeking peace and reconciliation, or publicly and openly coming to terms with all the violence and atrocities of the past, both those parties decided that the best way to deal with it was to simply not talk about what happened for several decades.
To see them now act like Sinn Fein are some alien entity, completely removed from the story of our state and with a history that we cannot possibly accept or comprehend, itâs just pathetic and disgustingly cynical. To glorify one episode of violence while at the same time acting like another episode in the same chain of conflict is reprehensible and unforgivable is a position worthy only of contempt.
Itâs a singular conflict, if you accept the premise of Irish nationhood at all you cannot simply cherry-pick the episodes of violence that suit you and ignore the rest. The political establishment of the Irish state canât just wash its hands of its own history. They are all embroiled in it. Political opportunism and the sniff of a few votes is no excuse to forget that.[/QUOTE]
1997
[QUOTE=âRocko, post: 1034441, member: 1â]
I donât have a problem with Adams being answerable for his actions. I do have a problem with one alleged victim of abuse causing a political storm for one party that suits the agenda of those who covered up a huge problem for decades.[/QUOTE]
So because there have been problems with cover up of sexual abuse in the past when the country was presided over by parties that you donât like and you think they got off the hook lightly, you have a problem with a case getting attention where it relates to the party you do like? Cahill shouldnât publicise her grievance against SF/Adams because you theyâll get done worse than FF and FG did for failings in the past? By your reasoning no other victim should come forward to criticise an organisation lest it should suit someoneâs political agenda. Thatâs idiotic.
Where is the cover up that some people seem insistent on here that there was? You donât even know what youâre arguing as it flip flops every other minute.
There are mass graves dotted around the country. We donât have the option of looking the other way. We need to confront this legacy issue for the sake of the children, but also for the sake of the mothers that have suffered, and for the sake of many, many children who were adopted, some of them illegally, from these institutions.
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 1035204, member: 2272â]There are mass graves dotted around the country. We donât have the option of looking the other way. We need to confront this legacy issue for the sake of the children, but also for the sake of the mothers that have suffered, and for the sake of many, many children who were adopted, some of them illegally, from these institutions.
Mary Lou on the Mother and Child Homes
SF donât like it up 'em[/QUOTE]
So what difference does it make??
Oh, it makes none, but now you have gone and your prejudice wonât keep you warm tonight⊠the devil will find work for idle hands to doâŠ
[QUOTE=âWatch The Break, post: 1035059, member: 260â]Comparing this to the history of abuse within the church is facile, itâs not tenable in the face of even the most basic analysis. To offer just one small point of distinction, the Catholic Church was not involved in a military conflict with the Irish state. At least not to the best of my knowledge.
This persistent decontextualisation of Sinn Feinâs activities in the North is maddening. Iâve always criticised the IRA campaign and would not regard myself as a nationalist at all, but to blithely ignore the bitter historical conflict within which Northern nationalists were embedded is as intellectually dishonest as it is idiotic.
Whether you supported the campaign or not, surely you have to recognise that it was a unique set of circumstances and that any events or actions have to be considered in that context. What makes the hypocrisy so especially galling is that the two major political parties in Southern politics emerged from a period that was itself an episode of the historical conflict from which the current manifestation of Sinn Fein emerged.
And far from seeking peace and reconciliation, or publicly and openly coming to terms with all the violence and atrocities of the past, both those parties decided that the best way to deal with it was to simply not talk about what happened for several decades.
To see them now act like Sinn Fein are some alien entity, completely removed from the story of our state and with a history that we cannot possibly accept or comprehend, itâs just pathetic and disgustingly cynical. To glorify one episode of violence while at the same time acting like another episode in the same chain of conflict is reprehensible and unforgivable is a position worthy only of contempt.
Itâs a singular conflict, if you accept the premise of Irish nationhood at all you cannot simply cherry-pick the episodes of violence that suit you and ignore the rest. The political establishment of the Irish state canât just wash its hands of its own history. They are all embroiled in it. Political opportunism and the sniff of a few votes is no excuse to forget that.[/QUOTE]
I agree absolutely with all this. My problem is that paedophilic behaviour has no place in any armed struggle. If the IRA felt empowered to act as judge, jury and executioner is such circumstance, it surely was not beyond them to remove further children from potential harm. They did no such thing with Liam Adams, and acted in a very similar way to the Catholic Church by simply moving people they had decided were paedophiles out of the area.
I have ongoing reservations about Adams repeated denial that he was a member of the IRA. I have read some chilling stories about him. I have far more respect and trust for Martin McguinnessâŠ
I have graver still reservations about the reaction of Mary Lou to these revelations.
Enda Kenny is a fucking idiot, and the problem is that his repeated tactic of deflecting any genuine criticism or enquiry by SF with puerile retorts regarding their history (the blue shirts being in a small greenhouse with a large rock here), has rendered any current or future genuine rebuke meaningless.
The Provos held their own internal enquiry into a rape allegation against one of itâs members. What did you expect them to do? Pass it over to a police force who neither the victim, the Provos or the nationalist community at large trusted? Did you expect them to disappear the accused at the word of the victim? What is it you find so alarming about what happened, the fact she was interrogated? Do you think a defence lawyer wouldnât do the same in a court of law? It ended up going to a court of law and look what happened there.
The Provos were ill-equipped to deal with this, but when the victim went and took it to the judicial system she still didnât gain her perceived justice either and was also unhappy at itâs handling. Itâs a smear campaign by the Southern media and the likes of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, these are the same political parties who refuse to get to the bottom of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. I donât see what your point and angle is.
I would argue with the phrase âadminister justiceâ, but agree with the post. It is not the administration of justice in this instance that concerns me, it is the decision to allow people they knew full well to be paedophiles to continue to work closely with children.
[QUOTE=âflattythehurdler, post: 1035213, member: 1170â]I agree absolutely with all this. My problem is that paedophilic behaviour has no place in any armed struggle. If the IRA felt empowered to act as judge, jury and executioner is such circumstance, it surely was not beyond them to remove further children from potential harm. They did no such thing with Liam Adams, and acted in a very similar way to the Catholic Church by simply moving people they had decided were paedophiles out of the area.
I have ongoing reservations about Adams repeated denial that he was a member of the IRA. I have read some chilling stories about him. I have far more respect and trust for Martin McguinnessâŠ
I have graver still reservations about the reaction of Mary Lou to these revelations.
Enda Kenny is a fucking idiot, and the problem is that his repeated tactic of deflecting any genuine criticism or enquiry by SF with puerile retorts regarding their history (the blue shirts being in a small greenhouse with a large rock here), has rendered any current or future genuine rebuke meaningless.[/QUOTE]
Out of interest, what are the chilling stories about Adams? I personally wouldnât be a fan of his and the maneuvers he pulled through the years to get the peace process in action but he has to be credited and lauded with the way he steered the ship and the O6 is now a much more habitable place to live for the nationalist community.
