To answer the question posted in the thread title, No, no he should not
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So too will the Sugarman report which may be the whole point of this bun fight.
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Vincent is a national treasure.
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Yes and?
If you had read this thread you would have seen I mentioned the Pro Treaty side laying down their weapons. Devâs rump doing the same sometime later. Then all of 70 odd years later Sinn FĂ©in doing the same. I said they didnât deserve a medal for doing so.
Just admit your point falls down on the fact that Iâm not some Michael Collins fan or a âBlueshirtâ. You can have a read of the 1912-21 thread if youâd like to see my thoughts on that period of Irish history as well.
He is.
You really donât care much for logic. You pose a question and deem the answer irrelevant. That sort of exchange is sadly beneath me. Iâm out.
There is no logic to your post, sorry. I donât care for inane, poorly thought out use of facts and statistics which was designed solely to deflect and trump the other figure. If you had used the Belfast Blitz as your example you might of had a point, but in your haste to get a bigger number you gave us a stupid, irrelevant stat.
I donât have to go doctoring your posts for you to make a fool of yourself, Tim, youâre perfectly capable of doing that all by yourself. I merely point the stupid, inconsistent, lightweight nonsense in your posts.
You did it a couple of weeks ago Sid as you well know. You have continuously followed me around here on this place jumping in trying to tie in irrelevant posts to Communism, Trump or whatever. As I said to you, and indeed many of your fans on here have also, whatever makes you happy but you look like a loon.
Pretty much every reasonable poster on here considers you to be the wingnut loon, not me.
Iâm entirely comfortable with their judgement.
Okay bud, looking forward to your next rambling interjection to try and connect Trump to the next topic I post on. Itâll get easier, just 4 more years. 
What are you on about?
Youâre the one who has connected yourself to Trump through your unfailing support for his policies. Why would I have to do something youâve already done yourself?
Go have a look at your posts in this very thread. Trying to connect the chap to anything. Your gas and highly original mimicking of his speech just today. You are still so bloody rattled over some election totally foreign to you. 
Tim, go and have a look at the nonsense youâve posted on this thread, put it down as yet another shit day at the office (youâve had a lot recently), and go to bed.
Really.
@Tim_Riggins The War of Independence most certainly had a mandate from the people (in so far as a mandate for any war can be âvoted onâ) on the basis of the 1918 Election result. A solid mandate in fact.
Pro-Treaty Forces also had a mandate. Both from the DĂĄil and the People.
Michael Collins also disproves your view point on (a) violence not working and (b) not gaining support as a leader through means of violence. As Co-ordinator of the WOI he achieved a measurable victory over the British Forces in Ireland (whatever way you want to look at it) and had the love of the people (including huge numbers from Anti Treaty side). Passage of time has painted the civil war story as either for Dev or Collins but it wasnât like that at all, arguably that came with later generations. Collins was genuinely revered as a leader even by his opponents, had the support to lead and had done so through the use of violence
I did say they had a semblance of a mandate. They had 46.9% (with uncontested seats but Labour abstaining, the Labour Party as a whole were far from keen on a WoI or setting up a DĂĄil in Dublin) of the vote and the most seats - but first past the post has always given it a gloss that isnât warranted.
I believe it is debatable over what they achieved. Itâs been my contention on that thread that the Irish nationalists turning to the gun and outright Republican rhetoric inevitably alienated the Northâs unionists and helped create deeper divisions on the island. The Anglo Irish treaty was a substantial gain on what Home Rule offered, but not substantial enough to warrant the aforementioned imo.
Regarding violence - Collins wasnât offering violence in 1922. He was offering peace, thus his side won the bulk of the vote with 72% supporting the Treaty. The point regarding Sinn FĂ©in was simple - in the early 80s they gained from the soft sell of hunger strikers but their political support drifted off in the 80s as the violence became more sickening. The SDLP won the Nationalist vote until that point. In the history of Ireland the only time a party has won promising to pick up a gun was in 1918, and I do not believe it was clear cut.
Some good points. I would argue that your assertion on the first past the post system is irrelevant, just as irrelevant as Hillaryâs popular vote in the US is. The system is the system. On that basis they had a solid mandate.
Good point on Collins offering peace in 1922 but he had reached that position through running/co-ordinating a thoroughly ingenius intelligence and guerrilla campaign of violence. I would say his popularity and reverence was cemented ever before the treaty was signed/peace was being offered.
Lastly, I would argue that the Unionists actions in opposing Home Rule so vigorously, introducing paramilitary armies and the gun to Ireland and the Government of Ireland Act of 1920 all far outweigh, and predate, both the impact of the treaty (and republicans turning to the gun) on our relationship with Unionists. The horse had bolted.
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To highlight what bmb has stated correctly above.
Randolph churchill, carson, bonar law and followers drove a paramilitary reaction to home rule in 1912/1913 which had not happened on the previous home rule bills.
This lead to a wider, deeper and long lasting nationalist response.
The diehard Unionists initiated the conflict which the likes of arlene foster perpetuates to this very day, 100+ years later. It may take another 100 years for demographica to settle it but there is only one long long term fix for the island
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Noel Whelan argues that this is just the same pattern for SF/IRA/Adams
@Nembo_Kid - he also confirms that Stack jr is a senior prison officer so you can rest assured that he has a job and he isnât some sort of layabout.
This was confirmed to him last night as well heâs just ignoring it