to be fair thatâs not a bad stance
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I explained a while back why Iâm done with them. Iâm mainly done with them because Iâve come to see SFâs brand of nationalism, and nationalism in general, as a totally toxic force. They donât answer questions and employ a similar flood the zone with bullshit media strategy to Trump and the Brexiteer Tories. I think theyâre bullshitters who just say whatever is popular. Theyâre a united Ireland party first, last and everything and a united Ireland is basically a totally irrelevant issue, especially in the Republic.
theyâve always been this. This is constant. Never changed.
So you have
Yeah. I used to care about a united Ireland. Now I couldnât give a toss. If it happens it happens, and thatâs fine, but itâs for the people up north to decide, and thereâs no real indication theyâll vote for it any time soon. Nationalist politics of either shade arenât going to get the North anywhere. The nationalists of both shades need to be voted out.
Also, even if you want a united Ireland, a Sinn Fein government down here makes it less likely.
why did you used to care and now couldnât give a toss?
i) Because romantic nationalist mythology is seductive - but ultimately itâs bullshit.
ii) Because whatever state the north is part of, and whatever fleg it has, isnât going to make a real material difference to peopleâs lives - and the process of getting to a united Ireland could make peopleâs lives considerably worse. Northern Ireland has the ability to be a reasonably successful society if it ditches the toxic politics and votes in politicians who actually want to make it work as a state. If they want to vote to unite with the Republic thatâs fine too, and in any future border poll we should vote to give them that right, but the one thing that would improve the lives of people in the north in the short term is to actually try to make it work as a state.
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explain this. There are people within the 6 counties who feel terrorized. What is romantic about that?
yes it fucking will, to the people who werenât planted there.
How can you be anti Israel and anti Nationalist. Pure fucking scutter Sid
Why do they feel terrorised? Romantic nationalist mythology, largely.
It wonât. How do flegs make a material difference to peopleâs lives in a positive sense? A functioning politics is by far the best way of materially improving peopleâs lives. The North canât have a functioning politics while it elects two sets of extreme nationalists.
Getting rid of flegs probably would make a positive difference because currently theyâre only used to stoke up tension and division.
Oisin McConville has the exact same views as me on this and heâs from Crossmaglen. He says the North is absolutely miles away from a situation where itâs ready for a border poll.
Iâm anti-nationalism in general. That goes as much for British nationalism as it does for Irish nationalism. Nationalism is centred on fake history, believing what you want to believe and believing you are the eternal victim, it depends on manufacturing imagined heroes who were virtuous and glorious, manufacturing a narrative to satisfy that idea. Rarely is it true. Nationalist history rejects real history when it doesnât accord with the narrative it wants to spin. Real history is horrible and complex and infuriating.
Iâm anti-Israel because theyâre butchering, denying the rights of and destroying the Palestinian people in a systematic fashion. As should any person of sane mind be against what they do.
Unionists, whatever you think of them, and I donât think much of them at all, arenât doing that. Protestants and Catholics arenât killing each other. Thereâs just not much trust between them. That lack of trust is perpetuated by the continual election of hardliners whose whole selling point is rejecting trust. I happen to think the DUP are worse than SF in this regard but that does not mean SF are blameless. Get rid of the hardliners and youâre in a good place to build a decent society.
As far as a united Ireland is concerned, let the cards fall where they may. But the dirty little secret SF donât want too admit is that a functioning NI state makes a united Ireland less likely. NI politics is not in a good place when one dominant party has ânever, never, neverâ as its raison dâetre and the other dominant party needs the state to fail to achieve its aim. The losers are the ordinary people.
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But Irish people have been killed because they live in a part of our Island that has been taken away and planted with people from another part of the World, and made to be a minority.
Just because everyone else has forgot about them doesnât mean we all should. There are people in the 6 counties who feel oppressed every single day, not because of some romantic ideology, but because they live in an occupied territory.
Youâre a hypocrite, Iâm afraid
How can you vote for nationalism in 2016 and not in 2020 without being a hypocrite, unless you never voted for nationalism which makes you a liar
Yeah, and that time is in the past. You want it to be now. But it isnât now.
Institutional anti-Catholicism in the North is pretty much gone. People live in peace.
And who tells us that? Sinn Fein tell us that. Theyâre right on that, at least.
Territory means nothing. Having the chance to make a decent life is what matters.
The rest of your post is bluster. Go and look up the word hypocrite because you plainly donât know what it means. Sinn Fein are the most hypocritical party on this island by a long way.
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if territory doesnât matter then Palestine can go and shite according to you?
fuck me
Read what I wrote a couple of weeks ago. An independent Palestinian state is not what matters. Iâve consistently proposed a one state solution with parity of esteem as one option that would help to solve the crisis. A federal one state solution is another possibility. A two state solution is another possibility.
But by far the most important thing is the ability of Palestinians to make a decent life and be treated with dignity. They currently do not have that. Catholics in the North do.
How the fuck do you know?
A functioning NI state is impossible without either the UK, the EU or Ireland propping it up financially. In a stand-alone state ordinary people would be much worse off.
How the fuck would you know?
OK. Make the opposite argument. That Catholics as in the North do not have a chance to make a decent life for themselves. That they do not live in peace. Itâs up to you to make the argument. And back up what you say with sources that comprehensively prove you correct. You wonât do so, because you arguing against reality.
Iâve debated this out ad nauseum elsewhere and in person. And every time, Shinners tell me all about how the lot of the ordinary Catholic in the North has improved immeasurably, how itâs Catholics who are doing better than Protestants in general now, and thus there is no need to go back to violence.
Which, even if they are correct on that point - and to some degree they are - is total hypocrisy, because that was never what the Provosâ campaign was about. It was about territory.
explain how the provoâs and the palestinians are different, outside of time?
One you support and one you donât.
If the Israeliâs provide a decent way of life for the Arabs youâll move on?
How do the Catholics in the North feel oppressed?
OK. Imagine playing soccer for a club and being good, you go to England, but you want to represent Northern Ireland, where you were born, as a Catholic, you play in Windsor Park and get death threats, as a Catholic.
Fuck off with your bullshit Sid
Just because people arenât being murdered doesnât mean they arenât oppressed.
I would safely say youâve never voted SF in your life
States come in all shapes and sizes. Some of the most prosperous states in the world are some of the smallest. Itâs not the size of a state that matters. Thereâs nothing to say NI couldnât function perfectly well as a fully independent state.
But NI wonât ever be a fully independent state, we all know that, itâll only ever be tethered to either the UK or the Republic so the point is moot anyway.
Like Israel?
Itâs about economic viability not size.