The problem for you Bandage as a Republican is that Provisional SF’s goals are more to do with justifying their actions and tying to 1916 than actually getting a Republic.
Most Irish people are not aware of individual incidents of the War of Independence. The WoI is generally accepted as a legitimate war because that’s what all sides of the new Irish State agreed on, whether pro or anti Treaty.
People bring up individual atrocities then and also the Civil War, but the Civil War was really not glamarised in Ireland. There was residual tension into the 1920s that led to Kevin O’Higgins assignation but ultimately you had the peaceful transition of power in 1932 followed by both establishments of the political divide completely cutting off their relationship to the military wings. DeValera ultimately rounded up the IRA and FG cut out Eoin O’Duffy and the ACA. The likes of Lemass moved on. In substance, both had similar views on the political question in Ireland, hence the question about what was the real difference for decades. The Civil War shaped Irish politics but it was never allowed to be glamorized, both parties to it ashamed of it in reality.
Provisional SF are trying to normalise their campaign now but there is the simple problem of Unionists. They are never going to allow Provisional SF to write the history books north and south. The current political situation in Ireland, where there is fatigue with FF and FG, has allowed them to move forward with their normalisation campaign. So yes, they can move forward in trying to get the youth of the South to think of the Provisional IRA campaign akin to the War of Independence, but that’s it. All that will lead to is greater fragmantation between north and south. We are not seeing a post Civil War calm and we likely never will - there is not the same essential constitutional position that FF and FG had.
If they were serious about moving forward with a 32 county platform, the toxic brand of SF would have been retired in 1998. But the primary goal of Provisional SF is the normalisation of the Troubles campaign. The SF brand is historically clunky, with the only reason for PSF holding onto it so due to British Fake News about 1916 being the SF Rebellion helped lead to political forces uniting under the SF banner in the First Dáil. It’s about normalisation of past acts and not true independence.
All of that is true Tim to a point it’s also slipping further into irrelevance as the jobs for friends culture this country espouses has further light shone on it. That is the reason for the growth of SF, the steadfast refusal of the civil war parties to attempt any reforms of how business is done in this state.
SF increasingly look like a convenient bogey man to deflect attention to younger voters by a compliant media, profiting from FFG administration.
Who is that? The only one I can think of that really fits that bill are the Cosgraves and Andrews clan. But Todd Andrews kids still went to Christian Brothers schools. It’s only the latest generation, Christ/Barry/David, that went to private schools. And one of those ended up in Sinn Féin…
Just to be clear - this was kicked off by a SF tweet. The tweet was subsequently deleted and Mary Lou and other SF heads have been out across the media saying it was wrong, to apologise and to emphasise it wouldn’t and shouldn’t happen again.
If there was no issue why were they in “delete and apologise” mode?
Except that PSF engage in the exact same practice themselves.
It goes beyond this State for SF to convince people. It is easier to normalise the Troubles with a group of children who think that their own great grand parents were revolutionaries themselves. That isn’t the case with 20 somethings from a Unionist tradition, by trying to normalise with one, you are pulling away from the other.
And the argument will come back to the 50+1 needed but that won’t be that easy to achieve. NI are going to have a unique position after Brexit that will probably work very well for them ultimately. We see how institutions like the NHS impact on people’s thinking over the national question.
Carson had left Ireland, tied himself to Northern Unionists for a while and then went off to retire in his Kent mansion.
Many Unionists left Ireland in the 1920s. The ones who stayed were often economically focused and also those of a nationalist bent.
It is not comparable to Northern Unionists now, many of whom live off the State directly or indirectly. They remain the small majority in the North which ultimately has to vote 50%+1 for a UI.
FFG haven’t cared about a United Ireland for 50 years now so any concern about SF damaging that vista however pertinent, rings extremely hollow. It goes back to the convenient bogeyman argument which people are seeing through
SF are a big fan of the ‘jobs for the boys’ culture in NI. They’d a fair few sign up late to the money for ash scheme as well.
Simple facts are that Irish society is becoming more divided as wealth becomes more concentrated. The housing situation is massive for anyone under 35 or renting and they are angry. These people generally don’t vote for FFG. A large majority of them vote for SF. Until SF go into government here and people can subsequently judge them on actual performance then this will continue. It’s all bullshit til then, with a shared FG/SF objective of ruining FF.
That’s complete and utter bulshit. It is the focal point and you’re calling it an irrelevance, a sectarian state was created to appease unionists and nationalists in the 6 counties were thrown to the dogs. The Provos had far more legitimacy than the old IRA in the war of independence. Everyone watched on as a loyalist pogrom waged war on the nationalist community aided and abetted by sectarian security forces and northern nationalists were just expected to take it.
Meanwhile FF and FG radicalized maniacs were justified in going around blowing each others brains out over whether or not they should be sovereign to the crown.
You aren’t dealing with the point here. It’s rather sad, you are from the North but cannot understand your fellow citizens up there and how to go about convincing them. Nor do you understand where you live now. A man without a home.
You can deal with the here and now. Brand SF is not moving forward for a UI. Brand SF is about normalising the actions of senior members for a few decades and not much more than that. The disbanding of brand SF would do far more to help a UI than anything else at this point, but they won’t, as it’s all about justifying the past.
I am. You aren’t. You haven’t grown up in the north, I have. I know what it’s like, I know what my parents, their friends, their families had to go through, how the state resented and oppressed them.
And you’re telling me I don’t understand, with your trust fund down there in Blackrock.
Indeed, it’s why the likes of cricket and rugby have been far better in uniting cross community than other sports.
You are blasting through your greatest hits of grievances there but not engaging the noggin. Okay, let’s agree that NI is a gerrymandered State, the reality is that PSF signed up to 50%+1 to get there.
How will that improve if “Warrenpoint is seen like Kilmichael” down south?