Suicide

A good old debate here lads.

Myself and the drink are not getting on well these days at all. Like dan I find that 2 nights out in a row can give me woeful depression in particular. There have been a few times I have been in a state for a week or more after a heavy session - four nights out of five was one which springs to mind.

Stag last weekend left me in a poor state and told myself I wouldn’t drink for a while as I felt like shit. Then the weekend comes and all that goes out the window and I was out again on the lash. I felt woeful earlier on but have come back to myself somewhat this evening.

Moderation is the key. Personally I couldn’t give up beer - I like the banter that goes with it and the taste of it too much. I think it gives me an essential social outlet, one where I feel relaxed amongest mates. But when you start continually drinking to excess you fuck yourself up and it WILL catch up with you no matter how invincible you feel. I just hope that someone reminds me of this when I am on my sixth pint next time I am down the pub.

By the way Fenway I don’t think people drink to excess as a means of escapism - at least not in all cases. Drinking to excess is the social norm. Winning GAA titles for instance is now no longer and few pints after the game and on to the local nightclub - it’s the day after and the day after that.

The culture of hesvy drinking is all over Ireland. And it seems to be getting worse from when I started out.

I would honestly say it’s not half as bad now as when I started out on the booze in my local area. Although it may be down a lot more to local circumstances than a more overall social thing.

[quote=“farmerinthecity, post: 217312”]
A good old debate here lads.

Myself and the drink are not getting on well these days at all. Like dan I find that 2 nights out in a row can give me woeful depression in particular. There have been a few times I have been in a state for a week or more after a heavy session - four nights out of five was one which springs to mind.

Stag last weekend left me in a poor state and told myself I wouldn’t drink for a while as I felt like shit. Then the weekend comes and all that goes out the window and I was out again on the lash. I felt woeful earlier on but have come back to myself somewhat this evening.

Moderation is the key. Personally I couldn’t give up beer - I like the banter that goes with it and the taste of it too much. I think it gives me an essential social outlet, one where I feel relaxed amongest mates. But when you start continually drinking to excess you fuck yourself up and it WILL catch up with you no matter how invincible you feel. I just hope that someone reminds me of this when I am on my sixth pint next time I am down the pub.[/quote]

i presume you are throwing that in at the end to have a dig at my post earlier
anyway my point is that in my 15 years of drinking alcohol i have yet to feel these depths of depression that the lads have quoted previously, the reasons i give for that is that i dont see or have ever seen alcohol as a mechanism to nullify problems or is necessary for me to socilaise, i merely see it as an option on weekends that if i want i go for a few drinks i do.
if i ever thought that drink was causing me to be depressed or effect my relations with those around me ( not me internet mates) i would knock it out and i dont see how it would be a difficult decision, there are many other things and people that depress me ( you included) and i try to avoid those as well…
But i would think for me to reach this stage i would have to be drinking consistently and be using it to cope with any stresses i would feel,

i understand and agree entirely that alchohol abuse is a depressant and must be a contributing factor in the mental health issues ireland faces today, all that i am saying is that i have never felt this way as a result of drinking and i am sure many more are the same, maybe my work environement is a contributer, i work a 28 on 28 off cycle and for the 28 days at work there is no access to drink for obviosu reasons, hence it can never become a frequent habit of sorts,

You’re a wanker

If someone does feel under pressure, talking to someone does make a great difference. The hard part is to open up the first time.

About drinking, same as a lot of others, the older I get the less I can hack the major sessions. I lost interest in it. What helped do it for me was when the kids were born and they wake you up at 5 or 6 on a lovely summer’s morning. they don’t care if you have a hangover or not.

A couple of sociables are lovely though.

I was on a stag 2 weeks ago, massive bender and i would say i was’nt right until the following weekend. I definetely think drinking to excess can mess with people’s minds.

Reading this the only conclusion that I draw is that everyone is different-
Some drink because they like it
Some because everyone else is at it
Some to get pissed
Some for the banter that goes with it
Some because it makes them feel self confident
Some for a combination of the above

My experience of it was that very few lads knew when to stop, that the only end point was the bar closing or running out of cash
But the sheer volume of alcohol is the issue regardless of the cause-
Suicide must be a complicated, multi layered issue that we’re only scratching the surface here
Alcohol intake may be a correlated with suicide as opposed to be causative, I don’t know, but it seems to me to be always lurking in the background

I really enjoyed drinking the absolute shit out of it for about 10 years. Definitely drank too much but there were some great times too.

The last couple of years not so much. Once in a while is great but I cant really handle the hangovers anymore. Not gone on the beer here and after some antics at the weekend I realised why I shouldnt drink wine.

As a non drinker once said to me you dont have to have drink to enjoy yourself and not all people that get drunk are great craic. The endless conversations about how drunk I was last night are fairly tedious. Some awful boring cunts are ‘great craic’.

Dont know why Sid you just dont give it up. Find other things to do at the weekends and save up for trips to see Bayern Munich, Deportivo La Coruna , some other random team or see Ireland in Moscow or Skopje. Considering I always found Dublin a 150 euro minimum a night out - 6 weeks away from it will give ya the bones of a grand to spend on something worthwhile.

I’m definitely warming to drinking less. When I was growing up at least booze seemed to be synonymous with craic which is far from the truth. Still have the occasional tear up but I’m happy out taking it handy on the booze on a night out, nightclub or not.

We’re getting slightly off topic now but Mickee – if that’s the only problem you have after the booze you’re a lucky man.

My hangovers are getting infinitely worse with age, have only been binge drinking three or four times in 2011 so far, this weekend was by far the worst. Headed out to Hoboken for the St. Patrick’s Day parade and started boozing around 11am, can’t remember the much from the end of the night, spent in the region of $400 too, must have lost some money. In the midst of an terrible bout of anxiety, paranoia and depression now, I wouldn’t wish this on Alex Ferguson. Will probably last three or four days minimum. Living alone when you’re like this isn’t a good idea either.

Think this could be the end of my relationship with alcohol.

150 euro a night? :o To be honest like many Irish I have neither the willpower nor the inclination to give up. I drink to socialise, have the craic, when there’s a match on telly and to escape life. Most things are an excuse in other words. I’d only go on the lash in town once every two or three weeks but wouldn’t spend near that amount, wouldn’t start drinking in the pubs until 9:00 anyway but chances are I’d be drinking before that so I’d end up having 10 or 12 drinks at any rate. Drinking cheap cans of lager and smoking 20 cigarettes at the same time is the problem and you know you have a problem when you’re drinking six or eight cans on your own regularly and when your first pint in a pub is your sixth drink. Trying to stay off the fags makes me very irritable actually especially on a Monday or Tuesday, I try not to smoke during the week at all and only at weekends.

Well there might be a couple of taxi journeys involved but yeah. Double vodkas and red bull and jaegerbombs in Coppers tend to blow the budget a bit. If I was going to a game in Croke Park and with a few lads on a session, the final bill for the day might be scary. I dont think thats anything out of the ordinary for many people.

Unfortunately although it isnt totally clear from your posts, an investment in a woman maybe required :smiley: . You sound like a man in need of a bit of purpose in his life and stuck in a rut. Drinking seems to be a method of escape but its leading you back to the same hole. I was the same way a while back, staying out till dawn on Sunday in London. Dont know why I did it considering the absolute shithole I tended to end up in at that hour. Absolutely hated my job and the city at that stage and was in need of something different in my life. Maybe consider packing in your job and head around Europe or South America for 6 months. Just see where the wind takes ya. If not, there are other ways of socialising apart from boozing. Triathlons, 10k clubs, even tag rugby seem to be popular at home these days for getting to meet people outside the normal boozing. A stint volunteering at a homeless shelter might give ya a sense of perspective aswell.

Best of luck with it anyway

Fuck sake lads, the TFK Summer Jamboree 2011 will be in Bewley’s at this rate. I’ve been drinking like a mad eejit tonight. The cause of and the answer to indeed…

Rocko - Surely this is a banning offence.

Ah muffin and latte value.

You’re all faggots crying about drinking

I would just like to say, if dancarter wants to commit suicide I would certainly encourage it

This interview on the Late Late brings it all home… 4 suicides near Athenry within a circle of friends.

Horrific.

terrible stuff. brave man to talk about it

http://www.irishtime…4308160074.html

PETER MURTAGH
THE E-MAIL came from a previously unknown contributor. The address said it was from a Grace Ringwood. But it was signed “Anonymous”. So just who was this anonymous Grace?

Her e-mail was sent at 10.24pm on Friday, August 19th. It contained an article on suicide, and Grace was insisting on anonymity should The Irish Times decide to publish it. From the content of the piece, it was clear why.

It detailed Grace’s struggle with depression. How she had tried to take her own life. How, encouraged by friends, she checked herself into hospital. “I signed a form with an unknown level of alcohol and pills in my system,” she wrote. “For all intents and purposes, my admission was voluntary. In reality I was too mortified not to follow the wishes of my seemingly put-upon friends, not to survive for the sake of my job, and far too blinded by the smoke and mirrors of depression and self-inflicted harm to realise what I was doing.”

It was well composed: layered, complex and very lucid. Grace described herself as a “professional, a consultant” and said she loved her work. The substance of the article was quite narrow. It explored the pressures that can affect a person when they return to work after trying to harm themselves. And how, when colleagues know what has happened, relationships can change and make it much more difficult for the person to resume a normal life.

“I write in the hope that this grabs someone, anyone, and makes them think twice about what they may lose by not asking the question. Seek guidance. Seek insight. For when you ask a question – a true question – only then can you receive an answer. And answers.”

The covering message with the e-mail said: “If you need information to confirm the validity of the story and my existence, please respond and I will get in touch.”

I read the piece on Monday, August 22nd, and replied around noon.

“Many thanks for sending me this piece,” I wrote. “I would be grateful if you would get in touch with me as, while we are extremely reluctant to publish unsigned pieces, clearly this is an exception.”

I included my mobile-phone number, and I got a call that afternoon. The person at the other end said she was Grace Ringwood and then told me her real name. “Actually, I think you know me,” she said, adding that she had sent me material for publication in her professional capacity and that, on at least one occasion, The Irish Times had published an article under her own name.

The “Grace” with whom I was chatting sounded clear, calm and comfortable with what she was saying. Not unstable, just normal. She had well-thought-out views on a difficult subject about which she wrote well, with the authority of personal experience.

The conversation lasted no more than a few minutes. I said that I would discuss the piece with the Editor, to whom I would have to disclose her true identity but would be suggesting we publish it anonymously. I would let her know.
Later that evening, a few minutes before 7pm, Grace e-mailed me again.

“Dear Peter,” she wrote. “Thank you for your call earlier. It was very comforting to hear your interest in the area, even if my piece in particular may not be deemed suitable. Nevertheless, if you do decide to publish it, do please let me know.

“And again, if there is anything else I can contribute or another area of the issue you would like me to write about, please do not hesitate to ask. I enjoy writing, and I think a great deal can be gained from writings on this issue in a paper like The Irish Times .”
We did publish – anonymously, as she requested – on Friday, September 9th, which was the day before World Suicide Prevention Day. The link, Grace’s suggestion, was apposite.

But, unknown to us, by the time readers were digesting Grace’s thoughts, she was already dead.
On Monday, August 22nd, within an hour or two of e-mailing how much she enjoyed writing and looked forward to contributing more to The Irish Times , Grace Ringwood took her own life.

GRACE RINGWOOD’S real name is Kate Fitzgerald. She was 25 when she died.

She radiated talent, energy, beauty and determination. Her long-term ambition was to write. She was someone whose life amounted to much more than the manner of its ending, and the immeasurable grief that that has caused her parents and brother, her wider family and friends – everyone who knew her and loved her for the person she was.

The day after Kate’s article was published, her father, Tom Fitzgerald, rang the newspaper to say he thought – was fairly certain, in fact – that the author of the anonymous piece was his daughter and that she had taken her own life between its having been submitted and published.

Some days later I met Tom and his wife, Kate’s mother, Sally. Sally explained immediately why her daughter chose the name. “Ringwood is my mother’s maiden name,” she said, “and I always told Kate that if I’d had another daughter, I was going to call her Grace. Kate loved that name.”

A cascade of raw emotion, love, memories, loss and some anger followed. But with all of those, there was also a feeling that Kate’s life story, and her many achievements, should not be swamped by bewilderment at her death, the manner of it, and that her plea for greater understanding of depression should be heard.

KATE WAS BORN on June 26th, 1986, in San Jose, California. Tom was from small-farming stock in Dingle, Co Kerry, but in 1971, aged 18, he headed for the US. Over the next seven years, he had a variety of jobs; he was a military policeman in the US air force and he worked on the Alaska oil pipeline.

One day, in 1978, he was sitting in a romantic-poetry class at the University of San Francisco. Sally, who as a teenager had spent a year at boarding school in Athlone, was sitting in front of Tom. Hearing his accent, she turned around. “That was it: lightning bolt!” she says.

Marriage followed, then Kate and, in 1989, her brother, William. In between, Tom studied computers and became a writer of technical manuals for PC users. His work brought the family to Europe; first to London and then to Ireland.

They settled eventually in Bantry, in west Co Cork, where he and William run a technical writing and translation company.

Sally, originally from La Jolla in California, was trained in classical voice in San Francisco, and established a school of voice in Bantry.

From an early age, Kate stood out. Her twin loves of politics and communication emerged in childhood, a legacy in part perhaps from her maternal grandfather, a cartoonist with the San Diego Union-Tribune newspaper.
Before she was 10, she drew a picture of herself making a speech standing at the podium of the US president.

As a child in Ballymore Eustace, Co Kildare, she started her own newspaper, which she sold in local shops. By the time she was at secondary school in Cork, she was reviving the school’s moribund debating society, with Tom’s help.

When Kate was in her teens, strong, high-achieving women became her heroes and role models. On her bedroom wall was a picture of Diane Sawyer, the US television anchorwoman. She admired the actor Katharine Hepburn as well as Katharine Graham, the matriarch of the Washington Post. All strong women, as Sally notes.

But the very qualities that made Kate special might also have marked her out in a manner not to her advantage. The bright kid with the American accent was bullied. “She was tough,” says Sally, “but not as tough as we thought. She had her own style. She stood out. She was single-minded, knew what she was about, what she wanted.”

Kate studied journalism at Dublin City University but switched to the international-relations course. She was 18 when the US Democrat senator John Kerry was demolished by Republican George W Bush in the 2004 presidential election. Kate sat up all night as the Democrats’ disaster unfolded.

She threw herself into the Irish branch of Democrats Abroad and emerged, in late 2007, as its chairwoman. She was just 21 years old but flung herself at the challenge of turning around an organisation that was, in effect, defunct. Within two years, membership had grown from about 200 to 1,400, and funds in the bank were up from €600 to €11,000.

By the time of the Barack Obama-John McCain presidential election, in November 2008, she was a regular radio and television commentator on the campaign. A trip to Washington for the inauguration followed, and when President Obama came to Ireland in May, Kate featured on RTÉ and on TV3.

“She loved the adrenalin of being head of Democrats Abroad,” says Sally. “She was so stylish; she was in PR, she knew how to present herself,” says Tom.

But beneath the surface, all was not well.

Tom says: “I think she felt in over her head. I think she was unable to cope with the value system that often exists in journalism and PR. She was hooked on the adrenalin of power, the pressure, the deadlines – but, you know, it was all too much for her.”

“She was not comfortable with failure,” says Sally. “She always wanted to be on top. She was constantly critical of herself; she never thought she could be good enough. She was a perfectionist.” Behind all the success, all the achievement, was there insecurity?

“Yes,” replies Sally. A lack of confidence, despite apparent self-confidence? “Yes.”

Drink began to assume a destructive role in her life. A broken relationship didn’t help. On July 18th, she checked herself into St Patrick’s University Hospital in Dublin, which specialises in mental-health issues. She did so through a fog of drink and antidepressants.

“In St Pat’s, she behaved like a normal person; friends visited, and so on,” says Tom. “But underneath all that was the problem she was hiding from everyone,” says Sally.

Sally’s theory is that a depressed person can sometimes try to “manage” their condition by stepping outside themselves but, far from controlling their condition, “they get farther and farther from reality”.

“I think that’s where Katie was that night. The person who commits suicide is not the person you know,” she says.

And maybe there was something in Kate’s mind from her family history. A half-aunt and an uncle, Sally’s brother, had taken their own lives in 1985 and 2002. The thought of a connection in Kate’s mind, however tenuous, upsets Sally, but she dwells on it. “That really distresses me a lot.”

ON THAT NIGHT , after e-mailing The Irish Times her prim, matter-of-fact but friendly note, Kate descended rapidly. Within a couple of hours, drink and pills had taken over. Tom and Sally believe I may have been the last person she spoke to. After that conversation, Kate left an incoherent voice message on another phone, but there was no last note, no message of explanation. Her yet-to-be-published article was the nearest thing to that.

Quite simply, and on her own, Kate went to a dark place from which she did not return.
The next day, two gardaĂ­ called to the family home in Bantry to deliver the worst news imaginable.

Amid the grief, a torrent of tributes was posted on Kate’s Facebook page. “Such a loss of a beautiful, smart and inspirational girl. In even a short time, she made a huge impact,” wrote Laura.

“Kate was a truly radiant personality. The world is a lesser place without her,” wrote Pat Lewis.

“I feel so incredibly privileged to have known Kate, to have tried to be as knowledgeable and as passionate and as damn good a dancer as she was,” wrote Alan.

At Kate’s funeral, in Glengarriff, Sally asked her students at West Cork School of Voice to sing Aaron Copland’s working of Simple Gifts, the Shaker hymn:
’Tis the gift to be simple,
’tis the gift to be free,
’tis the gift to come down where you ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
It will be in the valley of love and delight.

Tom spoke. So did William. Sally read Kate’s entry to Plan Ireland’s blog, Because I am a Girl – “although it was extremely difficult to do, I wanted Kates words to be heard” – and there were words too from the American writer Mary Kay Simmons, a friend of Kate.

She mentioned the dark corner of Kate’s bouts of depression and how “she lacked that extra skin that helps the rest of us fight one’s corner without depression” but still lit up the lives of others.

Kate’s ashes were scattered at Sea Ranch, a holiday resort in Sonoma County, in northern California, a place she knew and loved. “She’s there now with the whales and California sea lions,” says Tom.

Tom, Sally and William nurse their grief and want Kate’s legacy to be a better understanding of depression and suicide. They, no more than anyone else, do not have instant solutions.

“What I’ve learned from it?” Sally responds to my question. “Trust your instincts. Choose your friends and associates carefully. We also wish to help erase the stigma attached to suicide. Depression is a medical illness, not merely a mental condition. As Kate implied in her article, the answer is there, if you ask the right question.”