Suicide

Mac · November 28, 2011, 11:59am

I missed Sids bumping of this thread and was searching for it to post the exact same article as he posted. It’s well worth reading if you have 5 mins. The attitude expressed by both parents has to be admired. Maybe because one is not Irish and the other spent quite a lot of time outside Ireland their attitude to suicide is not the normal shame sometimes felt by Irish parents who lose a child in this way. Credit to the Times as well for publishing this.

Gman · November 28, 2011, 12:09pm

maybe a big merge is needed on the Gary speed thread with this one too.

just on the media reporting, only this morning did I hear suicide mentioned. on todayfms sports news, it was the usual ‘police arent looking to speak with anyone in connection to the incident’ guff that is with all suicides. thats the thing, they report suicides, and make it clear it is suicide, yet wont actually say it. its like there is a stigma attached to it, and if that remains, then it makes it harder for people to talk about these thoughts, as they feel stigmatised and embaressed to do so. tipping kings ridiculous post calling it a disgrace is why these people dont come forward, they would perfer to hide away rather than be called out on it.

but after the sports news, KC who was filling in for Dempsey this morning spoke about suicide prevention, and a website about checking on your mates as you dont know what they are thinking. and he actually spoke about it and said how its better to talk abnd make people more aware of the facilities there for those in distress. First time on Irish media I had heard Speeds death referred to as suicide (and it wasnt even by the news person reading) and first time I had heard any ‘discussion’ on it either. I know Darcy is big into suicide prevention, so would be suprised if he doesnt talk about it this morning.

Mac · November 28, 2011, 12:12pm

maybe a big merge is needed on the Gary speed thread with this one too.

just on the media reporting, only this morning did I hear suicide mentioned. on todayfms sports news, it was the usual ‘police arent looking to speak with anyone in connection to the incident’ guff that is with all suicides. thats the thing, they report suicides, and make it clear it is suicide, yet wont actually say it. its like there is a stigma attached to it, and if that remains, then it makes it harder for people to talk about these thoughts, as they feel stigmatised and embaressed to do so. tipping kings ridiculous post calling it a disgrace is why these people dont come forward, they would perfer to hide away rather than be called out on it.

but after the sports news, KC who was filling in for Dempsey this morning spoke about suicide prevention, and a website about checking on your mates as you dont know what they are thinking. and he actually spoke about it and said how its better to talk abnd make people more aware of the facilities there for those in distress. First time on Irish media I had heard Speeds death referred to as suicide (and it wasnt even by the news person reading) and first time I had heard any ‘discussion’ on it either. I know Darcy is big into suicide prevention, so would be suprised if he doesnt talk about it this morning.

Darcy was talking about it for a while but it was more to do with reviewing what was said in the papers. Talking about how Mairead Farrell looked on the Brendan O’Connor show on Saturday night then became a bigger priority :rolleyes: He may have come back to the topic but I’d changed channel at that stage with no interest to go back.

turfcutter · November 28, 2011, 12:31pm

http://www.irishtime…4308160074.html

PETER MURTAGH
THE E-MAIL came from a previously unknown contributor. The address said it was from a Grace Ringwood. But it was signed “Anonymous”. So just who was this anonymous Grace?

Her e-mail was sent at 10.24pm on Friday, August 19th. It contained an article on suicide, and Grace was insisting on anonymity should The Irish Times decide to publish it. From the content of the piece, it was clear why.

It detailed Grace’s struggle with depression. How she had tried to take her own life. How, encouraged by friends, she checked herself into hospital. “I signed a form with an unknown level of alcohol and pills in my system,” she wrote. “For all intents and purposes, my admission was voluntary. In reality I was too mortified not to follow the wishes of my seemingly put-upon friends, not to survive for the sake of my job, and far too blinded by the smoke and mirrors of depression and self-inflicted harm to realise what I was doing.”

It was well composed: layered, complex and very lucid. Grace described herself as a “professional, a consultant” and said she loved her work. The substance of the article was quite narrow. It explored the pressures that can affect a person when they return to work after trying to harm themselves. And how, when colleagues know what has happened, relationships can change and make it much more difficult for the person to resume a normal life.

“I write in the hope that this grabs someone, anyone, and makes them think twice about what they may lose by not asking the question. Seek guidance. Seek insight. For when you ask a question – a true question – only then can you receive an answer. And answers.”

The covering message with the e-mail said: “If you need information to confirm the validity of the story and my existence, please respond and I will get in touch.”

I read the piece on Monday, August 22nd, and replied around noon.

“Many thanks for sending me this piece,” I wrote. “I would be grateful if you would get in touch with me as, while we are extremely reluctant to publish unsigned pieces, clearly this is an exception.”

I included my mobile-phone number, and I got a call that afternoon. The person at the other end said she was Grace Ringwood and then told me her real name. “Actually, I think you know me,” she said, adding that she had sent me material for publication in her professional capacity and that, on at least one occasion, The Irish Times had published an article under her own name.

The “Grace” with whom I was chatting sounded clear, calm and comfortable with what she was saying. Not unstable, just normal. She had well-thought-out views on a difficult subject about which she wrote well, with the authority of personal experience.

The conversation lasted no more than a few minutes. I said that I would discuss the piece with the Editor, to whom I would have to disclose her true identity but would be suggesting we publish it anonymously. I would let her know.
Later that evening, a few minutes before 7pm, Grace e-mailed me again.

“Dear Peter,” she wrote. “Thank you for your call earlier. It was very comforting to hear your interest in the area, even if my piece in particular may not be deemed suitable. Nevertheless, if you do decide to publish it, do please let me know.

“And again, if there is anything else I can contribute or another area of the issue you would like me to write about, please do not hesitate to ask. I enjoy writing, and I think a great deal can be gained from writings on this issue in a paper like The Irish Times .”
We did publish – anonymously, as she requested – on Friday, September 9th, which was the day before World Suicide Prevention Day. The link, Grace’s suggestion, was apposite.

But, unknown to us, by the time readers were digesting Grace’s thoughts, she was already dead.
On Monday, August 22nd, within an hour or two of e-mailing how much she enjoyed writing and looked forward to contributing more to The Irish Times , Grace Ringwood took her own life.

GRACE RINGWOOD’S real name is Kate Fitzgerald. She was 25 when she died.

She radiated talent, energy, beauty and determination. Her long-term ambition was to write. She was someone whose life amounted to much more than the manner of its ending, and the immeasurable grief that that has caused her parents and brother, her wider family and friends – everyone who knew her and loved her for the person she was.

The day after Kate’s article was published, her father, Tom Fitzgerald, rang the newspaper to say he thought – was fairly certain, in fact – that the author of the anonymous piece was his daughter and that she had taken her own life between its having been submitted and published.

Some days later I met Tom and his wife, Kate’s mother, Sally. Sally explained immediately why her daughter chose the name. “Ringwood is my mother’s maiden name,” she said, “and I always told Kate that if I’d had another daughter, I was going to call her Grace. Kate loved that name.”

A cascade of raw emotion, love, memories, loss and some anger followed. But with all of those, there was also a feeling that Kate’s life story, and her many achievements, should not be swamped by bewilderment at her death, the manner of it, and that her plea for greater understanding of depression should be heard.

KATE WAS BORN on June 26th, 1986, in San Jose, California. Tom was from small-farming stock in Dingle, Co Kerry, but in 1971, aged 18, he headed for the US. Over the next seven years, he had a variety of jobs; he was a military policeman in the US air force and he worked on the Alaska oil pipeline.

One day, in 1978, he was sitting in a romantic-poetry class at the University of San Francisco. Sally, who as a teenager had spent a year at boarding school in Athlone, was sitting in front of Tom. Hearing his accent, she turned around. “That was it: lightning bolt!” she says.

Marriage followed, then Kate and, in 1989, her brother, William. In between, Tom studied computers and became a writer of technical manuals for PC users. His work brought the family to Europe; first to London and then to Ireland.

They settled eventually in Bantry, in west Co Cork, where he and William run a technical writing and translation company.

Sally, originally from La Jolla in California, was trained in classical voice in San Francisco, and established a school of voice in Bantry.

From an early age, Kate stood out. Her twin loves of politics and communication emerged in childhood, a legacy in part perhaps from her maternal grandfather, a cartoonist with the San Diego Union-Tribune newspaper.
Before she was 10, she drew a picture of herself making a speech standing at the podium of the US president.

As a child in Ballymore Eustace, Co Kildare, she started her own newspaper, which she sold in local shops. By the time she was at secondary school in Cork, she was reviving the school’s moribund debating society, with Tom’s help.

When Kate was in her teens, strong, high-achieving women became her heroes and role models. On her bedroom wall was a picture of Diane Sawyer, the US television anchorwoman. She admired the actor Katharine Hepburn as well as Katharine Graham, the matriarch of the Washington Post. All strong women, as Sally notes.

But the very qualities that made Kate special might also have marked her out in a manner not to her advantage. The bright kid with the American accent was bullied. “She was tough,” says Sally, “but not as tough as we thought. She had her own style. She stood out. She was single-minded, knew what she was about, what she wanted.”

Kate studied journalism at Dublin City University but switched to the international-relations course. She was 18 when the US Democrat senator John Kerry was demolished by Republican George W Bush in the 2004 presidential election. Kate sat up all night as the Democrats’ disaster unfolded.

She threw herself into the Irish branch of Democrats Abroad and emerged, in late 2007, as its chairwoman. She was just 21 years old but flung herself at the challenge of turning around an organisation that was, in effect, defunct. Within two years, membership had grown from about 200 to 1,400, and funds in the bank were up from €600 to €11,000.

By the time of the Barack Obama-John McCain presidential election, in November 2008, she was a regular radio and television commentator on the campaign. A trip to Washington for the inauguration followed, and when President Obama came to Ireland in May, Kate featured on RTÉ and on TV3.

“She loved the adrenalin of being head of Democrats Abroad,” says Sally. “She was so stylish; she was in PR, she knew how to present herself,” says Tom.

But beneath the surface, all was not well.

Tom says: “I think she felt in over her head. I think she was unable to cope with the value system that often exists in journalism and PR. She was hooked on the adrenalin of power, the pressure, the deadlines – but, you know, it was all too much for her.”

“She was not comfortable with failure,” says Sally. “She always wanted to be on top. She was constantly critical of herself; she never thought she could be good enough. She was a perfectionist.” Behind all the success, all the achievement, was there insecurity?

“Yes,” replies Sally. A lack of confidence, despite apparent self-confidence? “Yes.”

Drink began to assume a destructive role in her life. A broken relationship didn’t help. On July 18th, she checked herself into St Patrick’s University Hospital in Dublin, which specialises in mental-health issues. She did so through a fog of drink and antidepressants.

“In St Pat’s, she behaved like a normal person; friends visited, and so on,” says Tom. “But underneath all that was the problem she was hiding from everyone,” says Sally.

Sally’s theory is that a depressed person can sometimes try to “manage” their condition by stepping outside themselves but, far from controlling their condition, “they get farther and farther from reality”.

“I think that’s where Katie was that night. The person who commits suicide is not the person you know,” she says.

And maybe there was something in Kate’s mind from her family history. A half-aunt and an uncle, Sally’s brother, had taken their own lives in 1985 and 2002. The thought of a connection in Kate’s mind, however tenuous, upsets Sally, but she dwells on it. “That really distresses me a lot.”

ON THAT NIGHT , after e-mailing The Irish Times her prim, matter-of-fact but friendly note, Kate descended rapidly. Within a couple of hours, drink and pills had taken over. Tom and Sally believe I may have been the last person she spoke to. After that conversation, Kate left an incoherent voice message on another phone, but there was no last note, no message of explanation. Her yet-to-be-published article was the nearest thing to that.

Quite simply, and on her own, Kate went to a dark place from which she did not return.
The next day, two gardaí called to the family home in Bantry to deliver the worst news imaginable.

Amid the grief, a torrent of tributes was posted on Kate’s Facebook page. “Such a loss of a beautiful, smart and inspirational girl. In even a short time, she made a huge impact,” wrote Laura.

“Kate was a truly radiant personality. The world is a lesser place without her,” wrote Pat Lewis.

“I feel so incredibly privileged to have known Kate, to have tried to be as knowledgeable and as passionate and as damn good a dancer as she was,” wrote Alan.

At Kate’s funeral, in Glengarriff, Sally asked her students at West Cork School of Voice to sing Aaron Copland’s working of Simple Gifts, the Shaker hymn:
’Tis the gift to be simple,
’tis the gift to be free,
’tis the gift to come down where you ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
It will be in the valley of love and delight.

Tom spoke. So did William. Sally read Kate’s entry to Plan Ireland’s blog, Because I am a Girl – “although it was extremely difficult to do, I wanted Kates words to be heard” – and there were words too from the American writer Mary Kay Simmons, a friend of Kate.

She mentioned the dark corner of Kate’s bouts of depression and how “she lacked that extra skin that helps the rest of us fight one’s corner without depression” but still lit up the lives of others.

Kate’s ashes were scattered at Sea Ranch, a holiday resort in Sonoma County, in northern California, a place she knew and loved. “She’s there now with the whales and California sea lions,” says Tom.

Tom, Sally and William nurse their grief and want Kate’s legacy to be a better understanding of depression and suicide. They, no more than anyone else, do not have instant solutions.

“What I’ve learned from it?” Sally responds to my question. “Trust your instincts. Choose your friends and associates carefully. We also wish to help erase the stigma attached to suicide. Depression is a medical illness, not merely a mental condition. As Kate implied in her article, the answer is there, if you ask the right question.”

Thats some sad stuff there sid but from time to time I get sick of hearing about the good and the great what about the middling, the average and the not so great? is one life worth more than another ??

Mac · November 28, 2011, 12:49pm

2 awful cases I was told of recently.

A 20 year old in Kildare out shooting with the father. The young lad would be a bit hot headed and got into an argument with the father over something completely meaningless. Turns to the father and says, sure I’d be better off shooting myself or something like that. Father says something like, yeah go on sure or some throw away comment like that. The young fella puts the gun in his mouth and pulls the trigger. I’d see that as 2 lives lost as I doubt the father will ever get back to normal after that.

There used be a shop in Ballymoney in Wexford, small village shop like you’d see in most Irish villages. Owner apparently got into some financial trouble. Drove his car up the Wicklow mountains and set fire to the car with him in it. I’ve often wondered what would go through someones head when they’ve a knife to their wrist or a noose around their neck or a gun in their mouth, but to think a fella would sit in a burning car until he died is not something I can even comprehend or understand.

Flano · November 28, 2011, 12:53pm

2 awful cases I was told of recently.

A 20 year old in Kildare out shooting with the father. The young lad would be a bit hot headed and got into an argument with the father over something completely meaningless. Turns to the father and says, sure I’d be better off shooting myself or something like that. Father says something like, yeah go on sure or some throw away comment like that. The young fella puts the gun in his mouth and pulls the trigger. I’d see that as 2 lives lost as I doubt the father will ever get back to normal after that.

There used be a shop in Ballymoney in Wexford, small village shop like you’d see in most Irish villages. Owner apparently got into some financial trouble. Drove his car up the Wicklow mountains and set fire to the car with him in it. I’ve often wondered what would go through someones head when they’ve a knife to their wrist or a noose around their neck or a gun in their mouth, but to think a fella would sit in a burning car until he died is not something I can even comprehend or understand.

:o

caoimhaoin · November 28, 2011, 1:29pm

they are awful fucking cases.

Whiplash · November 28, 2011, 10:02pm

I cant get Gary Speed out of my head.What would lead a person down such a dark alley in the recesses of their mind and literally believe there was no way back.Everyone stares into the abyss at some point in their lives.What is it that maketh the man.You can have the heart of a lion and have true grit,be tough as nails and an inspiration to others but at the end of the day its all about the people standing beside you in life.Friends and family.I have read a book called unbroken which charts the almost surreal story of one mans fight for survival in the greatest of adversaries.then I see the sheer fickleness of it all when Gary Speed ended it all.I hope none of my loved ones ever experience that feeling.

God be good to him and God bless his family.

I know 3 people who have committed suicide in last few years.There is never any closure.People have talked about the ignorance and euphemisms deployed by our national broadcaster to present these tragic cases.I think I read somewhere that by addressing it explicitly that it can almost legitimise the act and serve or trigger a response in a person to think about committing such an act.I dont know how true this is.It is a farce that we are not proactive about tackling the issue.Out of interest today I looked to see what online services in Ireland there was to offer help to people.The samaritans was the only outlet for people or to request a consulation with your GP was the other piece of advice that was mentioned.It is a cultural thing as well.As much of our fondness for alcohol and sport is inate in most Irish men, so is our attitudes to seeking help or confiding in others.I have plenty of friends,We work 9 to have 5 monday to Friday.We talk about sport,work,women,we go out and drink and maybe go away to a premierleague game or Celtic match a couple of times a year.We are uttlerly helpless when it comes to discussing emotions of lifes problems.

fenwaypark · November 28, 2011, 10:11pm

I cant get Gary Speed out of my head.What would lead a person down such a dark alley in the recesses of their mind and literally believe there was no way back.Everyone stares into the abyss at some point in their lives.What is it that maketh the man.You can have the heart of a lion and have true grit,be tough as nails and an inspiration to others but at the end of the day its all about the people standing beside you in life.Friends and family.I have read a book called unbroken which charts the almost surreal story of one mans fight for survival in the greatest of adversaries.then I see the sheer fickleness of it all when Gary Speed ended it all.I hope none of my loved ones ever experience that feeling.

God be good to him and God bless his family.

I know 3 people who have committed suicide in last few years.There is never any closure.People have talked about the ignorance and euphemisms deployed by our national broadcaster to present these tragic cases.I think I read somewhere that by addressing it explicitly that it can almost legitimise the act and serve or trigger a response in a person to think about committing such an act.I dont know how true this is.It is a farce that we are not proactive about tackling the issue.Out of interest today I looked to see what online services in Ireland there was to offer help to people.The samaritans was the only outlet for people or to request a consulation with your GP was the other piece of advice that was mentioned.It is a cultural thing as well.As much of our fondness for alcohol and sport is inate in most Irish men, so is our attitudes to seeking help or confiding in others.I have plenty of friends,We work 9 to have 5 monday to Friday.We talk about sport,work,women,we go out and drink and maybe go away to a premierleague game or Celtic match a couple of times a year.We are uttlerly helpless when it comes to discussing emotions of lifes problems.

a lot of truth in that.

dancarter · November 28, 2011, 10:47pm

Great discussion lads. Haven’t time to get into it now bu few points

Think booze us far bigger problem now than long go. Way more spirits drank by young people drinking to get drunk rather than for social aspect. Get drunker, make bigger tit of oneself, more paranoid and humiliated the next day. Viscous cycle.

Loads of suicides not reported due of life insurance issues, have spoken about it in early pages of thread, as stated many single vehicle accidents are nothing of sort

Very very sad about Gary Speed, seemed an innately decent man. Some shocking rumours on twitter which if true will add a massive layer of anger and sadness to this story

caoimhaoin · November 29, 2011, 6:49am

could anyone tell me about these rumours?

KIB_man · November 29, 2011, 8:48am

What’s the most popular way of suicide? Anyone I know has gone the hanging route. One of my mother’s friends did the pills, my father found her.

Ah fuck it how could anyone go through with it? I know mental illness is far more complex than that but the sheer act of killing yourself is horrific.

Is it ever acceptable?

Thrawneen · November 29, 2011, 9:16am

Of course it’s acceptable. Nothing means anything anyway and nobody owes anybody else anything.

Mac · November 29, 2011, 9:56am

For anyone who is serious about it then it’s usually hanging from my experience as it’s very hard to get it wrong and in a way it’s quick and easy compared to other methods. Pills don’t give the same level of certainty due to the time involved. Someone could go unconscious but still be alive and be able to be revived.

Never be surprised at what goes through the head of someone suffering any kind of mental illness KIB. Whether suicide related or not it makes you think in a completely different way about a lot of things.

Mac · December 2, 2011, 11:54am

Can anyone find the article Kevin Myers wrote about Gary Speed on the Indo site? Doesn’t seem to be up there for some reason.

Gman · December 2, 2011, 12:08pm

whats the gist of it mac? saw an article in it by some other lad on Wednesday giving out about the tabloids muckraking and speed can now rest in peace.

Mac · December 2, 2011, 12:14pm

Something along the lines of Speed being a selfish bastard. Only heard Darcy talking about it this morning when reviewing the papers and a couple of people having a go at Myers on Twitter over it but can’t find the article anywhere.

http://www.independent.ie/independent.ie/editorial/todaysPaper/todayspaper20111202.png

anon61956325 · December 2, 2011, 1:20pm

He argued that people saying how great he was and giving him a glorious grief stricken burial might inspire others who are feeling suicidal to commit the act. He maintains that it should be talked about but it should be labeled self murder … He feels that people who have felt suicidal and not gone through with it to save their family the pain that gary’s young lads are feeling are the real heroes

Whiplash · December 2, 2011, 7:35pm

Kevin Myers: Suicide is self-murder and must remain taboo

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NO wonder a writer to the Letters Page on Wednesday sought, and was granted, anonymity on the subject of the suicide of Gary Speed.[/size][/font]
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In his small town, he reported, it was even proposed that a sports trophy be named after a local suicide victim. What would have happened to him if his identity had been revealed? For in the strange inversion of values that has occurred in recent years, what was once profoundly taboo is now almost hailed.[/size][/font]
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This is by no means a uniquely Irish phenomenon. The Nottingham Forest-Leeds United match on Wednesday began with a minute’s applause to honour Gary Speed, who had taken his own life. So how does one now hail a true hero?[/size][/font]
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There is, of course, no right time to write about suicide. In the immediate aftermath of one, if you strike a dissident note, you will certainly be tweet-lynched for your heartlessness. If you consider it when the topic isn’t in the news, it has no particular resonance.[/size][/font]
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But we cannot allow the e-mob, or other people’s emotions, to prevent us from talking about this, particularly now, with serious proposals to make Gary Speed BBC Sports Personality of the Year. Moreover, as the greatest recession since the 1930s grips the world, many people are drifting into despair. Suicide cannot be culturally tolerated as a proper way of coping with profound personal problems. I say nothing about Gary Speed. The only concerns for me now are his wife, Louise, and two sons, Edward (14) and Thomas (13), who are the very age when boys most desperately need their father. Not just his life ended last weekend. So too, for ever, did their childhoods. So too, for ever, did any proper sense of family Christmas. So too did any sense of peace and stability in their teenage worlds.[/size][/font]
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Serious bereavement is a rock in the stream of one’s life which ineradicably changes the course in which it flows. I lost my father to a heart attack when I was 15, and my life fell apart. I did not know a moment’s real happiness for the six years of pain and confusion and failure that followed. I pray that the death of Gary Speed will not be as catastrophic for Edward and Thomas as the death of my father was for me. But at least he did not choose that outcome. It is simply not good enough to respond to Gary Speed’s suicide by emoting about what a great man he was. Nor is it good enough for the media to join in this uncritical acclamation. His sons know little of his achievements. He was their father. That was what counted in their lives. How much did he think of them when he decided to take his own life?[/size][/font]
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We do not need to labour over the obvious; of course he was of unsound mind when he committed suicide. But we have removed the taboo from self-murder. That taboo, at least, added something on the scales in favour of survival. How many people – adolescents, say, who feel their lives are worth nothing – might now find the prospect of a tear-filled funeral and local celebrity quite an alluring prospect? Might not such a glamorous end posthumously validate the otherwise “valueless” – in their eyes – life that had preceded it?[/size][/font]
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On Tuesday, the ‘Daily Telegraph’ dedicated nearly seven pages to Gary Speed’s death. Two years ago, the same newspaper gave just half a page to Sergeant Olaf Schmid, GC, (posthumous), Royal Logistical Corps, killed in action while defusing IEDs in Afghanistan. Sgt Schmid toiled tirelessly to deal with bombs that might otherwise have killed his fellow-soldiers.[/size][/font]
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His stepson Laird will grow up knowing that Olaf, the only man he has ever called dad, gave his life so that other boys like him would not be fatherless. Laird might in time begrudge the sacrifice that was so one-sided and so unfair: but at least he can truly say that his father behaved with perfect selflessness. It is not possible to say this of a suicide. Moreover, it is wrong that society acclaims the man who kills himself above the stoic, the patient, and the long-suffering, and most especially above the still-living who have contemplated suicide, but who have decided that they could not do that to their families. These are the real heroes, who gave up a relatively easy death in order to live a far more difficult life, that they might faithfully serve others, in hardship, endurance and despair, when all personal joy had gone, and only a concern for others remained.[/size][/font]
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FAITH, hope and love: these are the cardinal human virtues. They also define a now deeply unfashionable concept: manliness. And since we can, quite rightly, no longer use the crude force of a pagan taboo as a control over people’s lives, then we must extol the positive, especially the moral concept that is the most noble of them all. Not for me, or you, or us, but for others; the concept that conveys faith, hope and love, which together go by that very simple and very male word, “duty”.[/size][/font]
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[font=“Verdana”][size=“2”][color="#333333"]I’m allergic to this fella.He portrays himself as an anti hero not bowing to conventiondom.An absolute prick of the highest order.[/size][/font]

anon95599269 · December 2, 2011, 7:39pm

what a cock- even th term to "commit "suicide is inappropiate these days