The Celtic Phoenix - A thread to list the economic miracles of Michael Noonan & Fine Gael


#1884

You cannot say the market solution failed when we didn’t see the market nearly close to being perfect in action.

We have never got close.

The government have done a belatedly good job in easing regulations on apartment builds which should help. That will make it easier to get some pay back on apartment builds than before.

Other measures would be the courts properly enforcing on defaulters.

Looking properly at middle class welfare (ie inheiritance tax) and the Fair Deal scheme which engourages 50 something couples to take out loans on their parents minimal nursing home costs, rather than giving this housing stock over to the market.

Of course building denser will help too.

I also believe that the current central bank rules are fucking over those in the market. 100% mortgages are seen as some great evil but why? You currently have in Ireland a high amount of good salaried jobs out there, but people in those jobs can not afford deposits. This is encouraging more Funds and cash buyers in as the rental market is so buyont. It is circular.

This all comes back to efforts to reinflate the negative equity many people were in and a determination that the low hanging fruit of property developers had to be the sacrificial lamb of the bust.

You also have to ask more broader questions like for example, why it has taken UCD almost 50 years to get beyond a couple of thousand beds on campus for 20k plus students. UCD moved from the city centre all those years ago and fully over a decade ago, but have only got close to linking up the campus half a decade ago.


#1885

We should implement the Clare solution nationally. Mud huts for everyone.


#1886

It would solve the whole housing problem if a government had the balls to do it.

Obviously it would have to be measured, but its the only solution to the housing crisis in my opinion.

The HAP payments to private landlords are crippling. It doesnt work expecting private builders to house everyone. Its not feasible unfortunately.


#1887

The last few governments stopped building social housing on a grand scale . They trusted the market to supply rental and the state would then give assistance .

That was grandish in an era of credit superabundance but in 2008 that hit a wall .
We are agree that the only solution is to build houses and apartments . How this will be done to benefit society and how it will be financed on a sustainable basis is the question .


#1888

I think it worked well in the 70’s and early 80’s until a government grant gave the more affluent families in those estates a 5 thousand pound gift to move on.

That was an absolute disaster in Limerick city certainly along with building hundreds of units on the outside of the city on top of each other with no amenities at the time.

Social housing has to be built essentially, but in low density clusters and in a vetted manner.


#1889

Sigh.

You are ignoring what I posted.

We built plenty of houses, just in the wrong places.

The wrong places was encouraged through zoning, regulation on apartment buildings, urban planning laws etc. It was stated Government policy in the 2000s to decentralise Dublin and every council/TD was gleeful in incentivizing builds.

After the crash, people wanted to lynch property developers in the streets. A political decision was taken to bankrupt them and then cripple them for long after other western countries would have them out of bankruptcy. The ones trying to do something are still sneered at, there is more to Jonny Ronan’s planning troubles than actual planning rules. As mentioned, we have until recently had incredibly backwards regulations on apartment/dense builds that encouraged hotel and office builds. We still have NIMBYISM rife, like the Transport minister protesting against a good dense development on a good transport corridor on the N11, just because it’s his constituency.

You simply cannot say it is the market, it is ridiculous.


#1890

Surely the thing to do is invest heavily in major regional towns to make them more accessible and resolve housing shortages? Galway, Limerick and Cork spring to mind. Let Dublin look after itself.


#1891

What does “invest in” mean?

How does it make these towns, with motorway, rail, and nearby airports, more “accessible”

Are there hordes of companies and people who wish to move there but just can’t get there in your opinion?


#1892

You actually asked for his opinion?


#1893

It costs between 300/400k just to build an apartment in Ireland today even where the local council own the land… where’s the incentive there and what’s pushing the prices up?

Rents on current apartments in Dublin are ludicrous and going up with no additional apartments/relief being built. A lot of foreign investors are buying up property and continuously upping the prices, it’s nuts. I get what @Julio_Geordio says that governments should not be building housing, but how do you level the playing field?


#1894

:brendan:


#1895

I just gave you ideas.


#1896

That is a part of Ireland 2040 but there are only so many clusters you can have for a population our size.


#1897

Where did you get that figure from?


#1898

Building costs are gone through the sky. You’d build a 6 bedroom, ensuites galore, mansion for 300-400K


#1899

I read it or it was on Yates last week, can’t recall
… Think the figures were when you went all in with planning and everything included.

I’m not trying to be a gowl here at all, just interested. Economics etc isn’t my thing… I just find it odd that we live in fear of this so called market.

When we needed housing in the 50s and 60s we went out and built them for people.

Now we are constrained by an imaginary market. Do we not have a duty of care to help people out?


#1900

You can be sure it isn’t really costing them that , but high figures all the same.


#1901

Builders never lie mate.


#1902

We forced the salt of the earth Dubs out of their homes and the area became known as Grand Canal Dock.

But now we’re being forced out of our homes by cunts called Chad and Sergei who work in the area they call Google Docks.

These multinational companies are either buying up the scarce city centre property stock themselves, or are happy to pay exorbitant rents to secure these places. It’s becoming like Canary Wharf with a load of office blocks but fuck all residential units.

The majority of Irish workers travel into these soulless buildings (which are actually great because there’s a pool table on the top floor and bean bags to sit on beside the canteen) on buses and trains from the satellite towns every morning. Because there’s hardly anywhere to live near their places of work and they can’t afford them anyway.

Flowing like lava out of the train, DART and bus stations to get to these places where instead of an annual bonus and/or pay rise they get invited to join staff groups to organise discussions on mindfulness, yoga and mental health and they might even get a free summer BBQ too.

These places really look after their staff and it’s imperative that our country’s economic model is designed to attract them and keep them here, even if they pay 0.01% tax on profits. They can then use these untaxed profits to secure even more of the city centre property stock.

I post a variation of this post every few months but FML life. Bob, we need to get more people involved in the struggle.


#1903

Construction costs make up less than half of these figures, which include the likes of VAT costs and developers’ profit margins.