The Official TFK Ireland 1912-1923 Thread

Nicholas Whittle.

Waterford was not the most renowned battalion in the Republican Army. It was a common jibe many years ago that our Cork neighbours, would often throw at us “that’s some fucking balls of a county, one ambush and two All Irelands”. The one ambush - of which more anon - was the Burgery ambush, outside Dungarvan, carried out by the West Waterford brigade led by George Lennon.

The East Waterford brigade also attempted an ambush, but this one was catastrophic. The plan was to lure British forces out of the City by attacking the RIC barracks in Tramore and to attack them at Pickardstown. However the action was a fiasco and put the lives of the volunteers at unnecessary risk. It was such a botch job that I have long suspected that the brigade commander, Paddy Paul, must have been a double agent.

The British arrived on the scene as per the plan, but Paul and others had become detached from the main force allowing the British to counterattack with ease. Two volunteers were shot dead on the spot, Michael McGrath from Tramore and Thomas Ryan from Dunhill. A third volunteer - Nicholas Whittle from Tramore was bayoneted and shot and left for dead by the British. Somehow Whittle gathered the strength to haul himself five miles that night to his cousins house in Ballygunner. The next day he was spirited into the Mental Hospital where the Resident Medical Officer, Dr Fitzgerald tended to his wounds.

However the family were in a conundrum. The British had assumed Whittle was dead but if there was no funeral the alarm would be raised. So the family staged a full funeral, but the coffin was empty. Meanwhile Whittle was spirited to the USA where he sat out the rest of the war.

On his return he was ever after known as the Dead man and his son Connie Whittle, who I knew was always known as the Dead Mans son.

Great stuff Fagan - hadn’t heard either of those before. Keep them coming.

John Dorney reports on the Decade of Commemoration Conference held by Queen’s University Belfast at the Royal Hospital Kilmainham, Dublin, in June 2012.

Roughly one hundred years ago, a series of dramatic and often violent events changed the course of Irish history.

From 1912 to 1914 the Liberal British Government tried to achieve consensus for a Home Rule Bill that would give limited self government to Ireland within the United Kingdom. So far from achieving consensus, this Bill provoked the founding of rival nationalist and unionist militias in Ireland and even a bout of disobedience bordering on mutiny by elements of the British Army over the prospect of being deployed against the Ulster (unionist) Volunteers.

The events of 1912-1923 shaped 20th century Ireland

This stand off was interrupted by the outbreak of the Great War, in which both mainstream nationalists and unionists pledged their support for the war effort. Some 200,000 Irishmen served in the British forces and about 30,000 died. Radical nationalists and republicans, appalled at the scenario of Irishmen apparently enthusiastically fighting for Britain and also in attempt to revive separatist nationalism, launched an insurrection, now known as the Easter Rising, in 1916.

The Rising was defeated within a week, but the repression of the rebellion, combined with the threat of conscription for the increasingly unpopular war, did indeed revitalize the cause of Irish republicanism and in 1918 the Sinn Fein party swept aside the moderate Irish Parliamentary Party in the first postwar general election and declared an Irish Republic in January of the following year.

From 1919, but especially from mid 1920 until July 1921, a guerrilla war raged between the Irish Republican Army (IRA) and British forces. In late 1921 the warring sides signed a Treaty, formally creating the Irish Free State (26 southern counties) and Northern Ireland(6 of 9 Ulster counties – first created in mid 1920). The two polities in Ireland managed to establish themselves by 1923 after respectively putting down a republican campaign in the north in early 1922 and an intra-nationalist civil war in the south over the Treaty in 1922-23.

Political violence in Ireland from 1916-23 claimed about 5,000 lives and injured many thousands more.

[SIZE=5] 100 years on[/SIZE]
In Ireland in 2012, it is already becoming slightly draining facing into the prospect of ten years of constant commemorations of all of these events. Each one listed above (and more) are loaded with enormously emotive symbolic value to various sides and as a result, virtually all are highly contested by someone.

Commemoration is, Jay Winters argued, ‘a pacifist act’

It is no bad thing therefore, for historians to try to inject some perspective at the start of events and Queens University provided a welcome forum for the airing of diverse views not only of the history but also of the historical memory and of the act of commemoration.

Historian Jay Winters, who specializes in the history of commemoration of the First World War, noted that the Irish experience – of war followed by revolution and ethno-nationalist strife – very far from being unique, was the common experience across a great swathe of Europe in the years after 1918. Nor is Ireland unique in trying to unpick historical memory out of a minefield of contested interpretations. Virtually all European societies, Winters argued, must do this when they look back at what Eric Hobsbawm called, ‘The Age of Catastrophe’.

We have written before on The Irish Story that the Irish revolutionary period is now passing out of personal memory (even second hand) and into a much less fraught and also much better documented stage, as acres of documentation, long kept under lock and key is being released to the public, very often by the families and descendants of the participants. This is a welcome process which is helping to restore the humanity to those who participated in both world war, revolution and counter-revolution.

Winters made this point very powerfully; Historians, he argued do not create or control the past. It is the story of people and therefore in the end, a matter of family, ‘Historians,’ he said, ‘don’t determine public memory’.

Why then is public commemoration so important? The American scholar had a good answer for this too. Public history, he argued, especially of epochal events such as war, serves as a ‘cathedral’ for secular societies, ‘where sacred questions are asked and sometimes answered’ – those about the nature of love, life death, comradeship and sacrifice.

He has a good point here. The Easter Rising, for instance, holds its great symbolic power not only because it can be said to have founded the Irish state, but from the values the rebels themselves are held to have possessed – bravery, integrity, patriotism and sacrifice. All of which are routinely contrasted with the supposedly corrupt and uninspiring present.

Interestingly, Winters also argued that the ‘boom’ in war commemoration was, ‘a pacifist act’, a ‘replacement for war’. In the context of the Great War, this rings true. Even in Ireland, where nationalists have always been profoundly uncomfortable with Irish participation, it is possible to argue that the Irish soldiers were united in common experience and left their divergent politics and religions as they entered the trenches. (Though personally I found myself nodding at labour historian Emmet O’Connor’s call to question how and why they got to the trenches in the first place.)

For the experience of insurgency and civil war though, commemoration is always necessarily partisan. One cannot equally apportion ‘sacred values’ to those who ‘murdered innocents’ and those who ‘defended democracy’ – labels apportioned according to one’s taste, both in 1912-23 and later in Irish history.

[SIZE=5]Consensus and commemoration[/SIZE]
For this reason I found myself much more in agreement with Diarmuid Ferriter, the other keynote speaker, who argued against the need for ‘consensus’ to come out of commemoration. Consensus implies a version we can all agree on and such a thing in the end cannot be truly honest. Quoting the novelist Sebastian Barry, Ferriter concluded, that by uncovering historical facts, ‘it is not to accuse, it is simply to assert that it is so’.

Before discussing how best to commemorate we should continue to try to discover what actually happened.

Very much of this needs to happen if the centenary of the Irish revolution is to mean anything at all beyond a construction of feel-good narratives. Brian Hanley, for instance, made the point that there would be no plans to commemorate the military campaign launched by the National Army against strikers in farms and creameries in 1923. And to this may be added a host of unpalatable happenings, from the North King Street massacre [/URL]by the British Army in 1916 to the [URL=‘http://www.theirishstory.com/2011/11/01/peter-hart-and-the-dunmanway-killings-controversy/’]Dunmanway killings by the IRA in Cork in 1922 and ‘pogroms’ of Catholics in Belfast by loyalists to the murder of anti-Treaty prisoners in the civil war.

Sebastian Barry’s quote is hard to improve upon. We may or may not damn all sides of that era equally, but we must be prepared to acknowledge sins committed by those with whom we agree as well as those with whom we disagree.

One more thing bothered me as I left the conference. Anne Dolan, whose book ‘Commemorating the Irish Civil War’, did excellent work on this very neglected aspect of historical memory, wondered if historians shouldn’t devote as much time to popular understandings of the past as to the nitty gritty of such factual disputes as the Kilmichael ambush of 1920. Why, in others words, people still care about whether or not the 17 Auxiliaries killed there by Tom Barry’s IRA column had first surrendered or not.

In one sense, this is a fair point. Popular memory, inevitably shaped by the changing needs of the present, is important. However the one problem I have with this is that it presumes that ‘we’, the historians, already know the history and can judge public memory against the facts.

This, especially with regard to the Irish revolutionary period, is not the case. The events of 1912-23 have been much commemorated but very little studied until recent years. It is only now that any study at all is going into events such as the IRA campaign along the border in spring 1922 for instance or the actual course of the Irish civil war.

Commemoration may or may not be consensual or pacifist, but, as far as we can still discover the facts, it must be truthful if we are to learn anything from it.

@Fagan ODowd

Divisional Commander Lt-Col Smyth, June 1920
[B]

❛ If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there – the more the merrier.

❛ Should the order [“Hands up”] not be immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching [a patrol] carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time.

❛ The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man.❜[/B]

[quote=“Mark Renton, post: 859960, member: 1796”]@Fagan ODowd

Divisional Commander Lt-Col Smyth, June 1920
[B]
❛ If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there – the more the merrier.

❛ Should the order [“Hands up”] not be immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching [a patrol] carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time.

❛ The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man.❜[/B][/quote]

Frightened the Kerry lads and the Cork lads had to shoot him for them.

What’s this about the national army putting down a strike in farms and creameries in 1923?

Docu on Radio 1 about 1916 uprising and its leaders

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/documentary-podcast-1916-rising-honour-closed-tale.html

Passed one of my favourite War of Independence sites there on Monday. The site of the Pickardstown ambush, outside Tramore. Marked by a memorial erected by the National Graves Association.

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Lest we forget-

The Loughnane brothers were arrested in daylight at their family home at Shanaglish, Co. Galway on the 26th November 1920. Their partially burned and mutilated bodies were discovered in a pond near Ardrahan on 5th December that year. The two brothers had been tied to the back of an R.I.C. lorry and forced to run behind it until they collapsed from exhaustion and were dragged along the road. Both of Pat’s wrists, legs and arms were broken. His skull was fractured and there were diamond shaped wounds, resembling the cap badge worn by the RIC Auxiliaries, carved into his torso. Harry’s body was missing two fingers; his right arm was broken and nearly severed from his body. Nothing was left of Harry’s face except for his chin and lips. A doctor who examined the Loughnane’s bodies stated that the cause of death was “laceration of the skull and the brain.” The attached photographs of the brothers’ bodies at the time of their discovery show some of the horrific injuries they suffered. The same month that the Loughnane brothers were killed, members of the RIC in Galway also killed a pregnant woman and a Catholic priest.

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/1924877_787671791252252_5895498200187040610_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/10300900_787672044585560_6729206131722832221_n.jpg

[QUOTE=“Mark Renton, post: 945324, member: 1796”]Lest we forget-

The Loughnane brothers were arrested in daylight at their family home at Shanaglish, Co. Galway on the 26th November 1920. Their partially burned and mutilated bodies were discovered in a pond near Ardrahan on 5th December that year. The two brothers had been tied to the back of an R.I.C. lorry and forced to run behind it until they collapsed from exhaustion and were dragged along the road. Both of Pat’s wrists, legs and arms were broken. His skull was fractured and there were diamond shaped wounds, resembling the cap badge worn by the RIC Auxiliaries, carved into his torso. Harry’s body was missing two fingers; his right arm was broken and nearly severed from his body. Nothing was left of Harry’s face except for his chin and lips. A doctor who examined the Loughnane’s bodies stated that the cause of death was “laceration of the skull and the brain.” The attached photographs of the brothers’ bodies at the time of their discovery show some of the horrific injuries they suffered. The same month that the Loughnane brothers were killed, members of the RIC in Galway also killed a pregnant woman and a Catholic priest.

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/1924877_787671791252252_5895498200187040610_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/10300900_787672044585560_6729206131722832221_n.jpg[/QUOTE]

After their bodies were discovered they were examined by a local doctor who found that the letters ‘I.V.’ were cut into the charred flesh in several places, two of Harry’s fingers were missing and his right arm which was broken completely across the shoulder was hanging off. Both of Pat’s legs and wrists were broken. The doctor thought it possible that hand grenades had been put into their mouths and exploded.

Cunts.

Where’s @artfoley[/USER], [USER=2272]@TheUlteriorMotive[/USER], [USER=1061]@twiceasnice97[/USER] and [USER=1533]@glasagusban now?

You can’t be going around the place putting the facts to revisionists like them lads Mark.
Thankfully there were real men living in those times

@Fagan ODowd i just read this whole thread
fair play, i feel a more learned man right now

[QUOTE=“mickee321, post: 945545, member: 367”]@Fagan ODowd i just read this whole thread
fair play, i feel a more learned man right now[/QUOTE]
Cheers Mickee

Not that we need another excuse to shit on them, but I never a company of Aussie cunts helped put down the rising in 1916- detailed report here on the Aussie government military site-

http://www.awm.gov.au/journal/j39/kildea/

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I am at a loss to understand why people choose to continue to commemorate Waterford’s Johnny Condon as the boy soldier of WW1 and the youngest combatant to be killed in the war at age 14, when the simplest bit of research clearly establishes this to be a falsehood. Condon is stated in all of the reports of the time to have been from Wheelbarrow lane in the city. The census return for the Condon family of Wheelbarrow lane is below and clearly shows Condon to have been 15 in 1911 and thus 18 in 1914

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[QUOTE=“Fagan ODowd, post: 946573, member: 706”][ATTACH=full]1267[/ATTACH]

I am at a loss to understand why people choose to continue to commemorate Waterford’s Johnny Condon as the boy soldier of WW1 and the youngest combatant to be killed in the war at age 14, when the simplest bit of research clearly establishes this to be a falsehood. Condon is stated in all of the reports of the time to have been from Wheelbarrow lane in the city. The census return for the Condon family of Wheelbarrow lane is below and clearly shows Condon to have been 15 in 1911 and thus 18 in 1914

[ATTACH=full]1268[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]

That calls for a letter to the times Fagan

Good work fagan, now get it into print. Have a second letter writer ready to throw in a support letter for the likely negatives you will get on reply

I wouldn’t give the Irish Times the satisfaction of letting them think I give a bollix what they print.
Anyway I am genuinely at a loss to work out the purpose of perpetuating this myth.