[quote=“glasagusban, post: 752172, member: 1533”]A deeply stupid post. Here’s an example: the boys who lined up in a firing squad and shot an elderly woman were cowards. Not one of them had the balls and moral fortitude to refuse to it for fear of being shot themselves.
Now, you can curse me and throw a hissy fit all you like for saying that, but it’s true, and it’s not revisionism. You and your like do own the moral ground to judge who is or is not a republican and I can recognise when something is wrong yet support the war of independence just the same. You can carry on with your head in the sand.[/quote]
They shot her as they had threatened to do if the tans executed 5 of their number. It’s called having the courage of your convictions. Whilst it may be unpalatable, to call them cowards does them a great disservice, they stood against the British Empire and faced death if caught.
An old woman who was directly responsible for the capture and execution of five of their comrades.
She informed on them and would probably have done so again.
[quote=“Mullach Ide, post: 752177, member: 141”]An old woman who was directly responsible for the capture and execution of five of their comrades.
She informed on them and would probably have done so again.[/quote]
And sent warning so that they could escape without being captured, so in fact did her best to ensure that none of them were captured or executed.
[quote=“chewy louie, post: 752179, member: 1137”]I am seething that ChocolateMice has classed me as a self loathing Irishman and have set my mood to illustrate this.
How dare he, I am one of the few posters on this forum who is a paid up member of an official Celtic Supporters club[/quote]
You took the soup and paid for your Celtic membership with the queens shilling… you’re the worst sort of Irish.
Jaysus. Namecalling and the “you’re not living in reality” line. I expected you could do better.
So, you don’t reckon that anything the IRA did back in the day was unjustified?
I suppose you’d be supportive of hamas, suicide bombers, the wall around gaza, israel bombing schools and civilians homes, the US firing drones at family homes and schoolchildren in Pakistan, guantanamo, Abu ghraid and all that craic as well so? Sure those boys are all fighting a war too.
Yeah and the Citizen Army were quickly put to the sword once the opportunity arose.
The nationalist movement were every bit as reactionary as the British establishment, and the manner in which they exercised power once they got it underlines that fact. Beyond the romantic nationalism they were not a particularly likable bunch, but their bravery and their audacity in their stance against British Imperialism is indisputable.
That’s where it begins and ends with them for me however. The state which they created was despicable in many respects, in particular their reactionary catholic attitude to poverty which was every bit as bad as their nationalist counterparts in Spain. Similarly their liberal use of the death penalty during the civil war, executing far more young Irish men than the British military had done during the war strips away much of the romantic lore that surrounded them.
Nationalist fanatics are a strange historical beast and glorifying them is eternally appealing but dangerous and somewhat misguided. They won the right of self-determination for the Irish people from the grasp of the British Empire, an immense achievement of great historical significance. But I think the Irish obsession with a history seen only through the lens of the ‘struggle’ for ‘freedom’ is ultimately a damaging thing that obscures the far more important social struggles that actually define real life in Ireland today.
The period from 1912-1923 was not truly revolutionary, certainly not in its ultimate outcomes, and absolutely not when compared with the Land Wars of the late 19th Century and the Labour Struggle of the early 20th Century. Those conflicts are far more instructive in understanding why this country is the way it is, whereas the postbox painting interpretation of the War of Independence is not dramatically removed from the truth by comparison.
I think the fact that the British drafted in so many extra regiments to Cork County is a pretty good barometer of how successful the IRA were in their actions. They fought a dirty unpalatable War in Cork but what they did worked, the IRA brought an enemy of British troops thousands of numbers more than them to their knees. How? By rooting out informers.
The British coin was enticing to many Irish whether Catholic or Protestant at the time and those caught taking it were made to pay. As much as we may dislike the way this powerful tool was taken from the British, you cannot argue against its results in nullifying a force and leveling out the playing field. As in any War there were casualties but facing what those IRA men in Cork were facing, you can’t deny their methods worked well.
Lets not forget the enemy they were fighting & how fucking ruthless they were before questioning our own is my opinion.
Tom Barry Quote
‘‘They said I was ruthless, daring, savage, bloodthirsty, even heartless. The clergy called me and my comrades murderers; but the British were met with their own weapons. They had gone in the mire to destroy us and our nation and down after them we had to go. – Tom Barry, IRA Tan War leader’’
WTB, finally some balance. Unfortunately some of these armchair wannabe rebel yahoos don’t have the attention span to look past the post box painting interpretation.
Its always fascinated me how any Irish person with a sliver of sympathy towards republicanism of any form, in any period of history,automatically becomes a "barstool republican"or “wannabee rebel yahoo” or some such intellectually brilliant put down. Surely the Indo is running out of tired cliches by now (OK, maybe not). I would class myself as a republican, one who is proud of the republican ideals and struggle, not just during the War Of Independence, or the NI troubles, but throughout a long history of struggle. It doesn’t mean that I agree or am proud of specific instances or people. For example the Brighton bombing was to me a justified military action. The Enniskillen bombing, Warrington and many others were not. They were outrages against humanity, totally unnecessary and in the end only damaged republicanism.
I agree with a lot of what WTB is saying, the struggle and the outcome are two separate things though. Unfortunately, once the struggle ended, the church was given back its role of de facto government and thus the rot set in.
But carryharry reminds us of a good point, probably the most important one.
Fagan, nothing is black and white, there are shades of grey everywhere when discussing this.
Glas et al, the republican baiting got old a long time ago, no matter how much revisionism you partake in.
