[quote=“Watch The Break, post: 752187, member: 260”]Yeah and the Citizen Army were quickly put to the sword once the opportunity arose.
The nationalist movement were every bit as reactionary as the British establishment, and the manner in which they exercised power once they got it underlines that fact. Beyond the romantic nationalism they were not a particularly likable bunch, but their bravery and their audacity in their stance against British Imperialism is indisputable.
That’s where it begins and ends with them for me however. The state which they created was despicable in many respects, in particular their reactionary catholic attitude to poverty which was every bit as bad as their nationalist counterparts in Spain. Similarly their liberal use of the death penalty during the civil war, executing far more young Irish men than the British military had done during the war strips away much of the romantic lore that surrounded them.
Nationalist fanatics are a strange historical beast and glorifying them is eternally appealing but dangerous and somewhat misguided. They won the right of self-determination for the Irish people from the grasp of the British Empire, an immense achievement of great historical significance. But I think the Irish obsession with a history seen only through the lens of the ‘struggle’ for ‘freedom’ is ultimately a damaging thing that obscures the far more important social struggles that actually define real life in Ireland today.
The period from 1912-1923 was not truly revolutionary, certainly not in its ultimate outcomes, and absolutely not when compared with the Land Wars of the late 19th Century and the Labour Struggle of the early 20th Century. Those conflicts are far more instructive in understanding why this country is the way it is, whereas the postbox painting interpretation of the War of Independence is not dramatically removed from the truth by comparison.[/quote]
I would not disagree with a word of this and in fact I have often posted similar comments about the counter revolutionary nature of Free State governments.
[quote=“glasagusban, post: 752186, member: 1533”]Jaysus. Namecalling and the “you’re not living in reality” line. I expected you could do better.
So, you don’t reckon that anything the IRA did back in the day was unjustified?
I suppose you’d be supportive of hamas, suicide bombers, the wall around gaza, israel bombing schools and civilians homes, the US firing drones at family homes and schoolchildren in Pakistan, guantanamo, Abu ghraid and all that craic as well so? Sure those boys are all fighting a war too.[/quote]
Would you go way to fuck… All these modern groups you’ve mentioned above are firing rockets from a distance… a push of a button job. Our boys barely had a few bullets yet we toppled the imperial might of the day. I mean one of those lads that executed that old one you are getting so worked up about only had a hurley, and had to stand in line with the rest pretending to fire at her while making ‘bang bang’ sounds. That’s dedication, pal.
T bugs the fucking shit out of me all these modern day experts trying to balance things out and tell the “truth” abOut Tom Barry an his comrades. And how his acts against the British army were cowardly and he wasn’t playing fair. How the fuck did people think anything was going to be won, it had to be dirty, he had to play sly and it’s not as if the Brits were to be trusted.
None of us know what it was like back then, but we’d know now only for men like Tom Barry. Get a fucking life ye gimps.
[quote=“Fitzy, post: 752199, member: 236”]Its always fascinated me how any Irish person with a sliver of sympathy towards republicanism of any form, in any period of history,automatically becomes a "barstool republican"or “wannabee rebel yahoo” or some such intellectually brilliant put down. Surely the Indo is running out of tired cliches by now (OK, maybe not). I would class myself as a republican, one who is proud of the republican ideals and struggle, not just during the War Of Independence, or the NI troubles, but throughout a long history of struggle. It doesn’t mean that I agree or am proud of specific instances or people. For example the Brighton bombing was to me a justified military action. The Enniskillen bombing, Warrington and many others were not. They were outrages against humanity, totally unnecessary and in the end only damaged republicanism.
I agree with a lot of what WTB is saying, the struggle and the outcome are two separate things though. Unfortunately, once the struggle ended, the church was given back its role of de
facto government and thus the rot set in.
But carryharry reminds us of a good point, probably the most important one.
Fagan, nothing is black and white, there are shades of grey everywhere when discussing this.
Glas et al, the republican baiting got old a long time ago, no matter how much revisionism you partake in.[/quote]
All the above is pretty much exactly what I’m saying and I have exactly the same outlook. What I take issue with is the handful of boyos who will refuse point blank to recognise that while overall the struggle to cast off imperialism was a noble thing, there were acts committed in the name of that struggle that were both unnecessary and wrong. Those yahoos are the armchair republicans. I hate the indo. Though I do read the sport section sometimes, but only online.
No one has denied that extreme acts were carried out, but will you try and put yourself in that time and place for a minute and not from your own arm chair. If you were met with indiscriminate state violence such as was carried out by the tans, you’d realise the only way to defeat that was to fight dirty and with no mercy. You were the one coming on here calling these men cowards, when you think of how unprepared they were, with fuck all real weapons and faced with the terror of what would happen to them if they were caught, you can not call these men cowards. Rightly, or wrongly, they did what was necessary… I dont think anyone here has a blinkered view of that period, and I certainly hold no love for what the stae became. But i’ll defend to death the bravery and conviction of the lads that stood up to be counted when their towns and neighbourhoods were being terrorised.
[quote=“ChocolateMice, post: 752239, member: 168”]No one has denied that extreme acts were carried out, but will you try and put yourself in that time and place for a minute and not from your own arm chair. If you were met with indiscriminate state violence such as was carried out by the tans, you’d realise the only way to defeat that was to fight dirty and with no mercy. You were the one coming on here calling these men cowards, when you think of how unprepared they were, with fuck all real weapons and faced with the terror of what would happen to them if they were caught, you can not call these men cowards. Rightly, or wrongly, they did what was necessary… I dont think anyone here has a blinkered view of that period, and I certainly hold no love for what the stae became. But i’ll defend to death the bravery and conviction of the lads that stood up to be counted when their towns and neighbourhoods were being terrorised.
Up the ra![/quote]
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this because while I agree with you up to a point I do not agree that all they did was necessary. In the case of falling into line and shooting that woman, I put myself in their shoes and I am certain it would have been easier to fall in and shoot her than to refuse and risk being shot by their CO. If any one in the firing squad thought what they were doing was wrong, they didn’t have the balls to say so. Of they believed it was necessary to free Ireland, well god help them.
I contrasted that with IRA man who refused his orders to shoot two 17 years olds. He didn’t do it and risked his own life when he did so.
IMO the latter man had the bigger set of balls than the boys who fell in line above. That’s where I’m coming from and it doesn’t change my hatred of colonialism and my support of the fight for independence.
[quote=“glasagusban, post: 752241, member: 1533”]We’ll have to agree to disagree on this because while I agree with you up to a point I do not agree that all they did was necessary. In the case of falling into line and shooting that woman, I put myself in their shoes and I am certain it would have been easier to fall in and shoot her than to refuse and risk being shot by their CO. If any one in the firing squad thought what they were doing was wrong, they didn’t have the balls to say so. Of they believed it was necessary to free Ireland, well god help them.
I contrasted that with IRA man who refused his orders to shoot two 17 years olds. He didn’t do it and risked his own life when he did so.
IMO the latter man had the bigger set of balls than the boys who fell in line above. That’s where I’m coming from and it doesn’t change my hatred of colonialism and my support of the fight for independence.[/quote]
But that is the brutality of war. If you adopt a stance that all informers must be shot, then you must be willing to carry out that act.
Disobeying orders in a military setting might show “balls” as you call it, but certainly won’t help you win a war.
[quote=“glasagusban, post: 752241, member: 1533”]We’ll have to agree to disagree on this because while I agree with you up to a point I do not agree that all they did was necessary. In the case of falling into line and shooting that woman, I put myself in their shoes and I am certain it would have been easier to fall in and shoot her than to refuse and risk being shot by their CO. If any one in the firing squad thought what they were doing was wrong, they didn’t have the balls to say so. Of they believed it was necessary to free Ireland, well god help them.
I contrasted that with IRA man who refused his orders to shoot two 17 years olds. He didn’t do it and risked his own life when he did so.
IMO the latter man had the bigger set of balls than the boys who fell in line above. That’s where I’m coming from and it doesn’t change my hatred of colonialism and my support of the fight for independence.[/quote]
Contrast me bollix, you called them cowards, the one thing these men could definitely not be described as.
If any a one of them thought shooting an elderly woman was wrong then falling in line into a firing squad and shooting her, afraid to do different for fear of being shot themselves, was a cowardly act.
[quote=“The Runt, post: 752242, member: 181”]But that is the brutality of war. If you adopt a stance that all informers must be shot, then you must be willing to carry out that act.
Disobeying orders in a military setting might show “balls” as you call it, but certainly won’t help you win a war.[/quote]
Exactly… You let one informer off, then what?? All old women can then inform away without reprecussions? It may have been drastic, but you can be sure a message was sent. This, unfortunately is war… I wouldn’t have the stomach for it, nor would many of the current generation, but it’s becuase of past actions that we can live our sheltered comfortable lives.
It’s the same thing I’ve said earlier on in the thread if only you still had the mental faculties to remember. And that’s supposed to be a hashtag there chief
You’re a mentalist… what army in the world lets fella’s decide what orders they should and should not obey?? D Day- I think i’ll sit this one out lads and catch up with ye in paris… :rolleyes:
