glas, should it only have been elderly women and those under 18 let off for being touts?
What if you were, say, male, age 31 but had a bit of a lazy eye?
Most army manuals require it if the CO is going off the rails. Watch Crimson Tide pal.
[quote=“Bandage, post: 752252, member: 9”]glas, should it only have been elderly women and those under 18 let off for being touts?
What if you were, say, male, age 31 but had a bit of a lazy eye?[/quote]
How lazy we talkin?
Would you say running one of the most effective guerilla units in history is “going off the rails”? They did what needed to be done.
They did indeed. A handful of small farmers, shop assistants and labourers dragged the most powerful empire in the world to the negotiating table and instead of lauding them for their bravery, this glasandban shoneen dismisses them as cowards, because they didn’t disobey orders. For fuck sake.
[quote=“glasagusban, post: 752241, member: 1533”]We’ll have to agree to disagree on this because while I agree with you up to a point I do not agree that all they did was necessary. In the case of falling into line and shooting that woman, I put myself in their shoes and I am certain it would have been easier to fall in and shoot her than to refuse and risk being shot by their CO. If any one in the firing squad thought what they were doing was wrong, they didn’t have the balls to say so. Of they believed it was necessary to free Ireland, well god help them.
I contrasted that with IRA man who refused his orders to shoot two 17 years olds. He didn’t do it and risked his own life when he did so.
IMO the latter man had the bigger set of balls than the boys who fell in line above. That’s where I’m coming from and it doesn’t change my hatred of colonialism and my support of the fight for independence.[/quote]
No wonder they struggled to get the country up an running with people like you here. If you want ti win a war you are going to have some awful shit happen. When you have a Civil war just after your going to have some awful shit altogether happen.
Ireland had tried the nice way with the Brits an the Brits and some if their own betrayed them. Can you even begin to imagine the distrust that was prevalent at this time? there has to be leaders, there has to be respect, there has to be a bit of fear, almost a bit of myth. These fellas needed people to follow them or fall in line. It was not ideal and no doubt innocents were murdered, but it was a war ffs.
Wake the fuck up, no they didn’t deliver the Republic everyone wanted, but how could they?
It’s only in recent times these stories come out and they give some bitter journo’s a chance to stir a few people up. Even at the time these things were inky small incidents in a period of turmoil.
The thing is, typically Irish, we are having an argument about something that most of us agree with 75% of what the other lads are saying.
A bit of perspective. An elderly woman notices the IRA prepping an ambush essentially out her back garden. She is a protestant but decides to also warn the ra boys that she is tipping off the police so that they also have time to escape. Those were her actions. Did she deserve to die? No. Did the fact they were in a war justify it? No. In the case of the two 17 year olds, they joined the british army in liverpool and were told they’d be shipped off east. They were sent to Cork. The IRA in cork ordered them executed, that order was disobeyed. Are you saying that those three executions ordered were not needed to be done and we wouldn’t be sitting here no otherwise? Nonsense.
Fagan, since you reckon everything the IRA boys did back then was correct and beyond reproach: IRA command subsequently ordered the release of that woman not knowing she had been executed. So which IRA man was right in that situation? The men doing the executing or the superior officer ordering her release? Try not to get a migraine trying to wrap your head around that one.
That’s a very good point Kev.
This talk about 90 bodies being buried in the woods could just as easily have a myth the rebel leaders wanted to spread to ensure people didn’t consider collaborating with the Brits.
Glasandban. Don’t be trying to change the subject. You were pulled up for calling these men cowards and you have been proven to be entirely wrong.
If only he’d apologise, we could all mature as a forum.
I haven’t changed the subject. Shooting that woman was cowardly. I have been a model of consistency on this. Care to answer the question above?
True. But I was wondering how glasandban would have conducted the guerrilla war. I get the sense that he thinks he could have commanded a brigade that would have bested the British Empire by humane methods, possibly through the use of pea shooters and gallybanders rather than the dastardly business of lethal force.
He would have asked them politely but firmly to leave.
It certainly hasn’t ocurred to him that it would be nigh on impossible to conduct a guerrilla campaign if kindly old women in the locality keep telling the enemy what you are up to.
[quote=“glasagusban, post: 752266, member: 1533”]A bit of perspective. An elderly woman notices the IRA prepping an ambush essentially out her back garden. She is a protestant but decides to also warn the ra boys that she is tipping off the police so that they also have time to escape. Those were her actions. Did she deserve to die? No. Did the fact they were in a war justify it? No. In the case of the two 17 year olds, they joined the british army in liverpool and were told they’d be shipped off east. They were sent to Cork. The IRA in cork ordered them executed, that order was disobeyed. Are you saying that those three executions ordered were not needed to be done and we wouldn’t be sitting here no otherwise? Nonsense.
Fagan, since you reckon everything the IRA boys did back then was correct and beyond reproach: IRA command subsequently ordered the release of that woman not knowing she had been executed. So which IRA man was right in that situation? The men doing the executing or the superior officer ordering her release? Try not to get a migraine trying to wrap your head around that one.[/quote]
Can I ask where you got your sources from for this incident that has you in a twist? Have you researched it extensively? Orders do not always flow smoothly and some times are pre-empted… it’s not as if a text message could have been sent. I’m not defending anyone, the issue was cowardice, but these men could have been planning this ambush for months, the old dear could have been warned to stay put and keep stum or face the consequences… how many people in the area were killed due to informers or operations hampered? Give us the whole picture here Glas please.
It occurs that they might have had more success had they not decided to set up in sight of some old dears back window. It also occurs that it’s not really on the ball to shoot old ladies who do their best to warn you so you can escape. We’re not talking about a spy in the unit reporting back to the brits here.
Shall I tap up a quick phd on it and get back to you? I’m not a historian buddy, I was discussing some incidents that were talked about on a documentary that I and some other TFKers were watching last night. Had they been planning for months they would probably have found a more secluded spot than her back garden, I would assume. My only point was, that some of the acts committed in the name of the war of independence were dead wrong, I thought this incident was quite a good example. Anyone who cannot accept that some of the atrocious acts that were committed were entirely unnecessary to the effort and were plain wrong is, in my view, an imbecile. My outlook that that particular execution was wrong is reinforced by the fact that higher up command subsequently ordered her release. If I am right and it was wrong then falling into line in that firing squad was cowardly. But of course the cowboy wannabe rebels on here are lepping up and down with outrage that anyone might take a more nuanced view than 'hon the 'ra.
[quote=“glasagusban, post: 752294, member: 1533”]It occurs that they might have had more success had they not decided to set up in sight of some old dears back window. It also occurs that it’s not really on the ball to shoot old ladies who do their best to warn you so you can escape. We’re not talking about a spy in the unit reporting back to the brits here.
.[/quote]
Mate you’ve uncovered the first ever case of NIMBYism.
That’s like complaining you got a punch back because you warned someone before you punched them first.
I may be wrong here, but i don’t think they said anywhere in the program last night that the ambush was set up in her back garden Glas. I think they said that word had spread of the ambush being made & she got wind of it. She first notified the Brits and then the local priest who then told the local Brigade. At no point did the little old lady approach the Brigade directly to warn them of her actions.
It must also be noted that local Commanders of Brigades had full authority and at no time were instructions from Dublin given out so it was never possible for Dublin command to save this woman. That notion is farcical. Those were the times Glas, if the British had wanted the Lady saved they would had heeded the Local Commands demands that their men be spared but alas they did not. They for that are just as responsible for her death!
[quote=“glasagusban, post: 752294, member: 1533”]It occurs that they might have had more success had they not decided to set up in sight of some old dears back window. It also occurs that it’s not really on the ball to shoot old ladies who do their best to warn you so you can escape. We’re not talking about a spy in the unit reporting back to the brits here.
Shall I tap up a quick phd on it and get back to you? I’m not a historian buddy, I was discussing some incidents that were talked about on a documentary that I and some other TFKers were watching last night. Had they been planning for months they would probably have found a more secluded spot than her back garden, I would assume. My only point was, that some of the acts committed in the name of the war of independence were dead wrong, I thought this incident was quite a good example. Anyone who cannot accept that some of the atrocious acts that were committed were entirely unnecessary to the effort and were plain wrong is, in my view, an imbecile. My outlook that that particular execution was wrong is reinforced by the fact that higher up command subsequently ordered her release. If I am right and it was wrong then falling into line in that firing squad was cowardly. But of course the cowboy wannabe rebels on here are lepping up and down with outrage that anyone might take a more nuanced view than 'hon the 'ra.[/quote]
You’re fair quick to get the hump when someone calls you a soup taker, yet anyone that disagrees with your point of view is a bar stooler or cowboy wannabe rebel…I dont know how many times people on here have to express that they find instances such as the old (king rat) woman getting executed, as disturbing or indeed horrifying…But you are picking them out as stand alone instances and refuse to acknowledge war, and more so a guerilla war, can not be fought with out such acts taking place. You are also basing this (from what i’ve heard) on a pretty one sided documentay on tv3 of all channels, again, the situation needs far more context than that. We all know what you are getting at, but I think your logic in picking out these instances without the context of time, and the trials and tribulations of those involved, is flawed. It was a brutal time, and that alone may not justify brutal measures, but who the fuck are we to judge from behind computer screens? That lady pinned her colours to the mast and she suffered a horrible end for it, like wise, many poor republicans and catholics before her suffered the same fate…How do you defeat state sponsored terrorism without reverting to such measures?? All I know is, life is a game of inches… and I’ll tell you this, in any fight it’s the guy whose willing to die whose gonna win that inch… and we won a whole lot of fucking inches 