They arenât equivalent. Mandating vaccines (which this effectively is) for day to day life is different to travel. There is some cognitive dissonance going on in some circles in claiming that this isnât a mandate, it quite clearly is. It is a huge ethical dilemma in public health, indeed members of NPHET have previously talked about the rights and wrongs of it.
Iâm personally on the fence on the idea of vaccine passports for day to day life. I absolutely think that a testing option is required along with a sunset clause, what troubles me is how this once again shows public health and governments doing a rapid about turn on policy and seemingly throwing away previous ethical practices. Micheal Martin himself previously said that for civil liberties reasons that he objected to them, then there is some BS about a new variant and he changes his mind.
Lads now arriving in July 2021 and saying it is grand is a bit much. Any debate should have been months ago.
You are operating at heroic levels of self deception. You basically wanted no restrictions during the pandemic. That approach would have meant many peopleâs needless death. Stop trying to pretend night does not follow day.
The world has changed in the last 18 months. People like you need to cop on.
Heâs quite mad, thereâs no point expecting rationality from him. There are only two possibilities for him, no restrictions and let it rip, or Zero Covid. Sid and himself define the dilemma of the left, joined at the hip ideologically yet mutually destructed at the first opportunity.
We are where we are. I could see where the process was going a long time ago. I believe âvaccine passportsâ are acceptable in the current context. What is the alternative?
You are on record as a supporter of the GBD. To me, that factor robs most of what you have to say of credibility. You believe it was somehow possible to avoid restrictions almost entirely and continue with normal economic life. You hold it was unfair to ask supermarket workers to operate because they were accepting more risk than the teacher or the engineer or the candlestick maker who could work from home. I never agreed for a moment with the black and white all or nothing GBD position. But I note that a vaccination passport asks everyone to accept risk â and the risk is minimal, according to nearly all reputable research â in equal terms. So vaccine passports are actually in tune, funnily enough, with the GBD.
I was walking home at teatime on Tuesday evening. My favourite pub in Ireland had reopened the day before. So I said I would I go in and see how they were and have a couple of pints before dinner. But I had forgotten my vaccination slip, because of being used to drinking outdoors in a beer garden. So when I was asked for the slip I had to admit I had left it at home and therefore could not come in.
I was not one bit put out. I simply went home and had dinner and came back in later and had a couple of pints, after showing my slip. The idea that not getting in there at teatime was some great infringement of my liberty seems to me laughable.
As what? A means to get more people vaccinated or prevention?
FYI the CDCâs new masking rules have led to Broadway mandating that fully vaccinated patrons wear masks, because it is stated that fully vaccinated persons spread the virus âas muchâ according to Fauci. In Irish terms, vaccine passports are only required in a couple of settings whilst many indoor activities do not have them. Gyms have been shown to be super spreader locations, and are disproportionately attended by younger persons, yet no vaccine passport required.
Any claims it would slowdown Covid are spurious. It has been quite clearly an attempt at getting vaccine take up higher in western countries. In Irish terms, I really donât think we needed it.
On balance, I accepted VPs in a couple of circumstances;
a) like Denmark did, as a means of early reopening of the economy whilst at risk persons were still being vaccinated
b) where you have genuine low level of take up, like a Bulgaria
B) is what we have done in effect and B is ethically questionable, thereâs no doubt about it. Aside from the logistics of it, I find the gaslighting by Martin on this to be unbelievable.
You seem absolutely desperate to bring this back to your Gurdian talking points on the GBD. This is what was said to you bringing it up to me before, do not lie
Letâs keep to what this is about. Pretending that these arenât a big departure for western societies and that the way theyâve been brought in was on the back of good debate is nonsense. We had months and months to properly debate them, you give conspiracy theorists oxygen when you say that you wonât bring them in but then ram them through at the last minute.
I think thatâs mostly nonsense and that delta did in fact pose a very real risk in July and we were right to respond somehow.
I donât agree with how we did respond. But if you are telling me the reason for the introduction of the measure was not delta, it was something else, then youâre talking complete nonsense.
To what? Circumstances did not change enough to warrant complete about turns in how you viewed the concept of vaccine passports.
It is a blatant attempt at increasing vaccine levels. If there was genuine concern at Delta overrunning hospitals weâd have been in another lockdown.
Well hang on, Iâve been strongly OIUTF throughout but dont we OIUTFers want old and vulnerable people to cocoon themselves for as long as it takes while while rest of us carry on with normal life? Maybe even longer than 9 months?
Iâve heard both arguments very clearly. The least unfair solution would be an Italian-style âvaccine passport / negative testâ system.
You seem absolutely desperate to bring this back to your Gurdian talking points on the GBD. This is what was said to you bringing it up to me before, do not lie
Letâs keep to what this is about. Pretending that these arenât a big departure for western societies and that the way theyâve been brought in was on the back of good debate is nonsense. We had months and months to properly debate them, you give conspiracy theorists oxygen when you say that you wonât bring them in but then ram them through at the last minute.
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Yes, I read The Guardian every day. So what? It is an excellent paper. I also read a lot of other newsprint. I will pass over the childish gibe, as if reading The Guardian defined my views. It does not, which is what makes people like you uncomfortable. I do not fit in any neat little ârightâ or âleftâ box. I like to think for myself.
You seem extraordinarily keen to keep asking me questions. Why, I do not understand.
I will confine myself to noting that the idea of vaccine passports as in tune with a central plank of the GBD makes you uneasy. If people think about matters a little deeper, without being in hock to right wing shibboleths, many things become apparent. Of course, the GBD is a crock of right wing shite, the usual stuff from the usual suspects. And the fact that sundry âlibertariansâ are now terribly put out about vaccine âriskâ and vaccine âcurtailment of freedomâ makes me coldly laugh. The ultimate freedom is not to become seriously ill or die.
Vaccine passports are here to stay for the moment. What would answer your criterion (âon the back of good debateâ) is hard to say, because you are rigidly anti anything that derives from state action and so cannot think properly about such issues.
Given time, life will return to something approaching normality. But there are going to be a lot of difficult cases around employment.
In terms of how we responded, that is generally it. The measure introduced was inconsistent across sectors. Gyms have been super spreader locations, why not for them too? If Delta really changed things, why not there?
Itâs a blatant attempt at increasing take up. In the U.K., Rabb has admitted it. Macron has admitted as such. Tbh I donât have a problem with people being honest about that, but it should been upfront.
If this site is still here in ten yearsâ time, that kango line is one the few that will endure. Really got under OIUTF skin, so it did, so it did,âŚ
