UK general election 2019 - corbinned

Great post, Corbyn is a vile individual and not very bright, hence the likes of glas buy his bullshit

Maajid Nawaz absolutely nails the issues here:

"I’m getting rather tired of the equivocation around this Labour antisemitism issue, so here’s a thread for confused pundits & voters. Some smart people out there have been hoodwinked by dishonest political hacks, or are simply too tribal to accept the difference in the following (written on twitter so apologies for the choppy style)

People of any political persuasion must acknowledge:

  1. Every party will have some policies you don’t like

  2. Every party will also have rogue members, or leaders, who said nasty things too

  3. usually, if a party has policies you disagree with, you simply don’t vote for them

  4. for Britain’s Jews & their allies, the issue with Labour Party is none of the above. I repeat: it is none of the above. So Corbynists, pls stop obfuscating, strawmanning &deflecting.

  5. the issue is Labour Party stands accused of being institutionally antisemitic (racist)

  6. this is very different to finding individual policies you hate, or representatives who utter bigotry

  7. for a body to be institutionally racist (ironically, a phrase coined by a 90s Labour gov. inquiry) not every member is necessarily a racist,nor necessarily is the leader

8 ) for a body to be deemed institutionally racist, intention & individual behaviour isn’t primary issue. Rather,outcomes are considered. If the totality of this body’s procedures, institutions& structure lead to racist outcomes, then sincerity &individual intent is no defence

  1. This is why 90s Lab government’s McPherson inquiry (rightly) deemed police ‘institutionally racist’ after unpunished racist murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence. They were not calling all police officers racist. Nor did it mean that other UK orgs didn’t suffer racism too

  2. so, back to the Labour Party: British jews and their allies are accusing this Labour Party under Corbyn of being ‘institutionally antisemitic’. This means precisely that the party’s mechanisms, procedures and institutions lead to racist outcomes against its Jewish members

  3. this does not mean every Labour member is racist. It also does not necessarily imply that even Corbyn is (he might be). Rather, it points to the failure of Corbyn’s ship, with him as captain,to steer away from antisemitism. Sincere individual intent is not a condition here

  4. what British Jews are (correctly) alleging is that the Labour Party discriminates against them, as a party machine. That the outcomes in that party no longer protect them against racism. This is an institutional failure

  5. So, back to my opening line about political tribalism: any instinctive defence, “Whataboutery” response,or even allegations of hypocrisy,like “why aren’t you doing more to address racism in your own party?” entirely miss the nature&seriousness of what is (accurately) alleged:

  6. British Jews and their allies are not in a state of alarm because Labour has individual racists in it (which is bad enough as it is). No. The Tories, Lib Dem’s, Brexit party & others all have bad apples. I repeat: the issue isn’t the existence of bad apples

  7. the issue very precisely & seriously is under Corbyn, Labour seems not only to have ignored the problem, or denied it, but in many cases doubled down on it & worse even blamed the victims for reporting it. In other words: the Labour Party machine has been co-opted by racism

  8. if one understands the nature& seriousness of the allegation, then one would never reply by saying, by way of example: “but what about Johnson and niqabi Muslim letterboxes?” Bad thing to say, but not evidence that the Tory party machine discriminates against Muslim members

  9. Also, it’s very important to recognise that criticising ultra-Conservative Muslim dress is a political right, because the ‘choice’ to adopt fundamentalist dress is a valid societal choice that must equally be subjected to scrutiny - like any religious conservativism must be

  10. No. Racism is not the same as criticising my religious choices, or lack thereof. You can (politely) criticise my religion, because it’s an idea. All ideas must be scrutinised. But one cannot insult another’s race, without being rightly deemed a racist.

  11. Jews are both a people and a religion. European antisemitic tropes against Jews concern their supposed habits as a ‘people’, not their religion. So, its racism to suggest that all Jews are secret greedy capitalists, or have large ugly hooked noses, for example.

  12. no serious Jewish voice or organisation has ever said it’s racist to criticise Israel. None. I repeat, none. This is a complete Strawman. I criticise Netanyahu’s policies regularly and know many Jews and Israelis who do so too.

The issue is about
a) traditional European antisemitism flooding back into Labour (eg: East London ‘greedy capitalist’ mural that Corbyn defended)
b) holding Israel’s Jews to higher standard than the world
c) an obsessive focus on Israel for errors that are far worse elsewhere
d) supporting or otherwise praising genocidal, jew-murdering terrorist groups

  1. some examples for all of the above can be (non-exhaustively) found here: https://twitter.com/thegolem_/status/1191348844375740416…

  2. So, people like Tory Baroness Warsi, who seems to have made a career of late out of deflecting over this antisemitism issue in Labour, to attacking her own party instead over “Islamophobia” (sic) totally miss the point:

  3. Johnson, or any rogue Tory MP or member, can and do say racist or proto-racist things, but does the party with a Muslim-origin Chancellor really discriminate against Muslims institutionally? Does it then double down & deny its racism (I repeat: blasphemy is not racism)

  4. this Muslim believes not. And I have never voted Tory in my life, and will not do so this time either. There are problems in the Conservative party, yes. I disagree with them, yes. But they are yet to meet the test of being institutionally anti-Muslim.

  5. truth is, there is only one major political party right now that has had senior former cabinet members resign over this (correctly) alleged institutional racism. There is only one party that is being investigated by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission over said racism. That party is the Labour Party

  6. AND THIS IS WHERE I GET UPSET: if Boris Johnson, Jo Swinson, or anyone other party leader, let alone individual MP, had SHARED A PANEL in Parliament with members of the now banned violent NEO-NAZI UK-based TERRORIST group National Action, you would all be going ballistic now

  7. yet Corbyn not only shared platforms with jew-killing Hizbollah &Hamas TERRORISTS,he not only called them friends,but took £20K from their sponsor: holocaust denying theocratic dictatorship of Iran. Now…imagine you’re Jewish,and then imagine Corbyn in No.10 as PM. Precisely.

After all the above has been digested & recognised as a unique problem only with Labour right now, then add that Corbyn is a Brexiter too & may bargain away the UK with SNP (allowing Scotland another vote) just to become PM, you’ll get why we say #NoToAppeasement & #NeverCorbyn

After the holocaust we vowed in Europe #NeverAgain - then Bosnia happened. Europe is not immune to repeat-offending. We must never be too arrogant to think we are. Brexit or Remain, we do have choices other than Labour. We must not betray our Jewish cousins over a tribal vote

After all this,if we still choose Labour, at least let’s stop pretending we are “progressives”, or that we care about racism & minorities or that we “listen to victims when they tell us we’re hurting them”. It’s all BS. Just admit that you really don’t give a damn about Jews.

Ends."

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Quoting Maajid Nawaz? :smile:

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There’s no evidence of Trump or Trump supporters being anti-Semites?

Wow

This gets better

The denial on your part is absolutely astonishing - Trump said Nazis at Charlottesville were “very fine people”, and you wonder why I mention Nazis

Yet you and they still can’t produce evidence to back up your and their assertions

This is sort of a basic thing you’d ask for

Did you read up about the evidence in the stiidy I linked to above?

Did you fook

This is an actual anti-Semitic statement

Why did you associate anti-capitalism with anti-Semitism? Seriously? That’s a classic anti-Semit trope

Appearing on Press TV years ago doesn’t make you an anti-Semite, same as anybody who appears on RT doesn’t deserve to be automatically classed as an anti-Semite, though I have no time for RT

You apparently think it does

You are nuts

Wow - you couldn’t make this stuff up

There is a problem with racism anti-Semitism in UK politics - it’s weird that it seems to mainly come from the Corbyn haters

We’re actually seeing it right here on this thread this morning

Apparently anti-capitalism now equals anti-Semitism, at least according to @Tim_Riggins

Also appearing on a TV station owned by Iran now apparently means you’re an anti-Semite

Where do you start with this insanity

@Tim_Riggins if could answer any of my points raised on this thread over the last few hours that would be great

But if you could address the question about whether Michael Gove should resign over his categorically anti-Semitic tweet on Wednesday and whether Boris Johnson should resign over his consistent racist utterances, that would be even better

You could perhaps also explain why you consistently support/supported a blatant anti-Semite in Trump and his anti-Semitic Republican party

Alan Duncan was apparently an anti-Semite too for having a sensible, nuanced view of Israel/Palestine

And he’s a Tory

Except that of course that Duncan isn’t an anti-Semite or anything remotely resembling one

And definitely, definitely not the victim of an Israeli smear campaign, except that he was - in the words of the Israelis themselves

You said Trump voters. Again you can never back it up.

On the contrary, I have. Numerous times.

See below;

You have never engaged in those points. You simply ignore them.

Interestingly when someone quits the LP for anti Semitism or self criticises the LP for their approach to anti semitism, you’ll point to them being an Israeli shill. Does that include Jon Lansmann and John McDonnell though?

When the BBC aired a programme on it you attacked them. This is something you’ve done more recently on Brexit (we have I, thought I’ve always criticised certain journalists). A few years ago you would have pilloried the right for complaining about the “biased BBC”.

Do I really need to post all the resignations on the issue? The number of complaints? The ongoing HR investigation into the party?

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Sid and Tim can ye take ye’re big long winded posts off to a PM please? Painful shite.

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Criticising Israel is absolutely fine.

Not being aware of the odd anti Semitic trope happens. But it happens to Corbyn a bit too often, a man who has been evidenced to be in social media groups and followed accounts with anti Semitic material a bit too often.

Hanging out with and promoting people with anti Semitic and holocaust denial views, is not fine.

Enjoying the company of Hamas and calling them friends is not fine.

Going on Iranian State propoganda tv (and engaging with anti Semites) for a fee is not fine.

I will reiterate what I have said before though. I do not believe Corbyn is an anti semite. I believe he is a dullard who will always listen to anti Western viewpoints with sympathy and refuses to look under the hood on these people. That is a personal failing of bias. What is not defensible though is leading a political grouping that, by even its most vocal supporters admit, had had an emerging anti Semitism issue.

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You’re here asking why people don’t like him.

Sorry that goes beyond your typical punchy one word response or emoji.

Wow

You’re saying there’s no evidence of Trump voters being anti-Semites?

This just gets better

Denialism on steroids

Absolutely

It was a ludicrous programme which contained interviews with 17 members of pro-Israel lobby groups

It had zero balance and zero counterpoints

It was a shameful piece of “journalism”

Bogus anti-Semitism smears are Kafkaesque - if you say they’re falsified or exaggerated - you then are bogusly smeared as an anti-Semite

So of course Lansmann and McDonnell have to be seen to say certain things in public or more smears are aimed at the party

Chris Williamson was actually spot on when he said the party was too apologetic - because there is no evidence that Labour has a problem with institutionalised anti-Semitism

What he said in that instance was not remotely anti-Semitic

Nor what Kate Ramsden said

The guy in Clacton was rightly stood down because what he said was anti-Semitic

But that’s a very rare instance

Why has Gove not stood down when what he said was anti-Semitc

People with a brain can seee through this stuff and can see what is going on

Now, deal with your own apologism for anti-Semitism

Lansmann and McDonnell are smart people

Why have you given up on full stops?

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So now you admt Corbyn is not an anti-Semite when you can’t find any evidence

Corbyn is a lifelong anti-racist and is one of the biggest allies of the Jewish community in parliament

He has continually fought racism in all its forms for his whole life and career

Anti-periodism

What is it with you and periods?

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I see @balbec is doing the Richard Hammond act here by liking posts while being too afraid to comment

This is a chap who moved from Limerick to Poland

Join the dots

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/jeremy-corbyn-paid-iran-press-tv-tortured-journalist-2016-6

Here is Jeremy on Press TV, banned in the U.K but which he appeared on but paid for. This is one of those where he criticizes the West - any word on the owners of the channel which he got paid for and what they get up to?

As I said, Corbyn is a dullard. I have no doubt he doesn’t support Iran’s treatment of its own citizens or support some of their most extreme foreign policy positions. But they’re anti West, so hey ho, he is happy to talk and get paid by them.

I couldn’t be bothered wasting my time engaging with you. I have a proletariat to suppress.

Have you worked out yet whether you love or hate billionaires after your contradictory comments

I don’t think you have

I told you to stop fucking calling us that.